Front disc brakes on your hudson for less than $125

bob ward

from Chic's post on 22nd Dec

"All the backing plates have to do is keep the caliper in place from spinning around when you hit the brakes....."

DEFINITELY NOT. The caliper bracket has to do TWO things and do BOTH of them very well. 

The first thing is the obvious one as above. If you don't know what the second one is and why its important its probably best not to mess around with disc brake conversions. Hint - the caliper pistons can exert forces of many 1000s of pounds.

Look at the disc brakes on any car, even the early disc brake cars, none of them have flimsy 1/8" pressed metal caliper brackets with bits welded on, they all have substantial properly engineered caliper brackets. And you won't see a weld anywhere. Even with all the welding science and expertise the car companies have at their disposal they DO NOT WELD brake components, they are all made from the solid.

Maybe - just maybe - those thousands of bright engineers at Girling, Toyota, GM etc know a thing or 2 about disc brakes and design caliper brackets accordingly.

Finally - home welding brake components?????

Chic

I have to agree with you on one point, the calipers do put out thousands of pounds of pressure but your other point is mute.....all the caliper does is "pinch" the rotor via the pads to create friction on the rotor....there is no side to side pressure exerted on the mount...that is why the calipers are basically "free floating" and are designed to float around on the mount. The original backing plate holds the shoes and prevents them from spinning around when the brakes are applied just like it  holds the caliper bracket and caliper from spinning around when the brakes are applied!!  The brackets I used from Speedway are designed to be "WELDED" to the rearend tube ("flimsy 1/8" pressed metal") and have been used on thousands of disc brake conversions both on and off the track!! Think what you may but I have been using this conversion for a year now and have inspected them many times with ZERO signs of failure or fatigue. I will say that if you do not trust your own welding skills get someone whose skill you can trust.  And again....please feel free to enjoy yellow snow!

DirtyDave

appreciate the detailed post

anyone can start there and engineer to their hearts content.

minor addition, screw in wheel studs are available at Summit racing for ~$20. I had to use them on my front drums ('39 112) to mount my aluminum rims (Gasser project). They screwed in from the back no sweat.

I had trouble finding full tread hard steel bolts.

Chic,

I assume the  97 Grand Marquis front rotors are 5 on 4.5"?

I know Ford was 5 on 5" for some bigger vehicles.

Chic

Yes, the marquis rotors are 5x4.5

airbrushguy

Are we going to see any disc brake pictures here?

Thanks

bob ward

From Chic’s post of 27th Dec

......the calipers do put out thousands of pounds of pressure but your other point is mute.....all the caliper does is "pinch" the rotor via the pads to create friction on the rotor....there is no side to side pressure exerted on the mount..........

ONLY IN AN IDEAL WORLD. 

Out in the real world, due to wear, dirt, moisture, age, there is a very real possibility that piston forces will be exerted sideways onto the caliper mount. Competent designers are aware of this and design caliper brackets to withstand sideways forces. 

The effect of the sideways forces on an under designed caliper mount depend on their severity. 

Light forces will mean that the mount will side flex slightly whenever the brakes are applied, it may fatigue crack over time, it may not.

Severe forces can mean that the caliper binds onto the disc and locks up the wheel.

Have a look at the caliper brackets on any disc brake car, see how rugged they are against both rotating and sideways forces. There has to be good reason for this, car companies do not waste money over-engineering components.

Guys, the expensive part of Hudson disc brake conversions has always been the caliper mount. Low volume engineering and manufacturing is always expensive. 

Spend the money, do it properly.

airbrushguy

Final conclusion/opinion?

Geoff

If you want to drive your Hudson like a modern car then go for this mod, otherwise learn to drive like they used to back in the fifties.  In other words you don't  rely on your brakes for driving down hills, but slow down before you get to a steep grade and change down.   Occasional application of the brakes to impede progress, rather than constant pressure, which will cause drums to expand, and linings to heat up leading to brake fade.   I always drive my cars as if they have no brakes.  Safer, and the linings last exponentially longer.  

Geoff 

Lee ODell

I second Geoff's driving and braking advice. Mom & I had identical cars. She could not get 20,000 miles on a set of brakes. I changed my first set of brakes at 105,000 miles and still had lining left. Lee O'Dell

keithfullmeryahoocom

Question on brake pads for the discs.   Metalic or ceramic?  Which would be preferred?...k

terraplane8

bob ward said:

From Chic’s post of 27th Dec

......the calipers do put out thousands of pounds of pressure but your other point is mute.....all the caliper does is "pinch" the rotor via the pads to create friction on the rotor....there is no side to side pressure exerted on the mount..........

ONLY IN AN IDEAL WORLD. 

Out in the real world, due to wear, dirt, moisture, age, there is a very real possibility that piston forces will be exerted sideways onto the caliper mount. Competent designers are aware of this and design caliper brackets to withstand sideways forces. 

The effect of the sideways forces on an under designed caliper mount depend on their severity. 

Light forces will mean that the mount will side flex slightly whenever the brakes are applied, it may fatigue crack over time, it may not.

Severe forces can mean that the caliper binds onto the disc and locks up the wheel.

Have a look at the caliper brackets on any disc brake car, see how rugged they are against both rotating and sideways forces. There has to be good reason for this, car companies do not waste money over-engineering components.

Guys, the expensive part of Hudson disc brake conversions has always been the caliper mount. Low volume engineering and manufacturing is always expensive. 

Spend the money, do it properly.

The possibility of unequal sideways forces caused by a binding piston or caliper was my initial thought too. That must be why OE caliper brackets are so solid in both planes. Of course with brake shoes, this is not a concern, ie no chance of unequal sideways forces.

At the speeds I drive at, ie under 65mph the OE brakes are perfect and in fact extremely good, able to squeal the tyres and haul up straight.

airbrushguy

So I guess no one is willing to try this and thus we will only hear deductions and opinions from people who haven't. Chic, I think you could help us and eliminate some questions if you could put up some pics.

Thanks

46HudsonPU

airbrushguy said:

So I guess no one is willing to try this and thus we will only hear deductions and opinions from people who haven't. Chic, I think you could help us and eliminate some questions if you could put up some pics.

Thanks

I appreciate the time and effort Chic has put into this, and REALLY appreciate his willingness to share it with us.  I don't think of the opinions surfaced as negative at all - I look upon them as experienced input, words of caution, and other input that will be helpful - going forward into our own individual projects...

As for trying it - give it a bit of time.  Many of us have projects in the works, and may not be at the correct or proper point to 'give it a go', but will address it when their individual project gets to that point.

And Chic - since we are experiencing issues with posting pictures ('Attach a File'), if you want to post pictures, just send them to me and I'll see that they get put into the thread.  I will PM you with my email address.

Ol racer

FYI

Well said Rick...
Disc brakes on a Hudson are a great upgrade. I feel Chic's extensive research for an economical conversion followed by Months of road testing himself before sharing the information is to be applauded.This Forum continues to be a great resource for sharing this type of information.

Matt1950

FYI:

Just looked up the Caliper bracket that is listed. Here is what it stated on the speedway website:

These caliper brackets mount flat and must be welded onto your 3" diameter axle tube. Designed to mount a 1978-1988 GM metric car front caliper for use with an 11.75" diameter rotor. Brackets are 1/4" thick.

IMCA APPROVED

12BoltTom

You guy's might not remember, but the boy and I did this on a 1941 BigBoy.
Torino master cylinder
93? Crown vic rotors
GM metric brake calipers
Homemade brackets
Ford Explorer 8.8 and hooked up to the stock parking brake (use 2 Pass side explorer brake cables)
This ranks up there with the worst site to post pics on.
Here is our album, https://imageshack.com/a/5Yuq/1

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/eyN9HTy6j][IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/N9HTy6.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://imageshack.com/i/eyYtI416j][IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/YtI416.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://imageshack.com/i/p46l2rsdj][IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/904/6l2rsd.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://imageshack.com/i/eyg3Dga4j][IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/g3Dga4.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://imageshack.com/i/p4GA0J3Hj][IMG]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/904/GA0J3H.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

DirtyDave

Thanks for the album post!

....................and this is the worst site to post pics, easier to build a car than post pics here!

RichardD

All you need to post photos here is the online photo site URL where you have them; ie: the album above.  If you don't have them in a cloud site then you are the one who is negligent. You can lose all your photos and albums if you don't !!!  However,would suggest Picasa Web Albums (not Picasa !!) because you can comment on each photo for all to see and read about the photo . When you already have them in a web-album it is extremely fast to do copy and paste of a URL rather to go to the photos on your computer and post one by one. Been there--done both. But obviously many don't and can't~~~

Edit: if you have only one or two photos to post{generally the case}; definitely a problem.

 

 

airbrushguy

Chic sent me these pics of the brackets

bob ward

Oh dear! Now that there are pictures I can see that the arrangement is far worse than I imagined. 

It is totally totally inadequate.

Quadster

I just put front disk brakes in my hornet coupe. I bought Matt Faust's beautifully machined brackets and hubs. His kit includes everything you need for a first class installation just supply off the shelf rotors and calipers. Total cost about $750. Money well spent.

Chic's setup is scary and borders on insanity

chopperchuck

Quadster said:

I just put front disk brakes in my hornet coupe. I bought Matt Faust's beautifully machined brackets and hubs. His kit includes everything you need for a first class installation just supply off the shelf rotors and calipers. Total cost about $750. Money well spent.

Chic's setup is scary and borders on insanity

Pictures? Contact info?

PaulButler

For those struggling to post pictures here (we did have a couple of issues earlier in the year - now fixed) I'll refer you to Rick Clark's post about how to do it :

http://openforum.hetclub.org/discussion/165387/attach-a-file-pictures-files-is-working-here-are-some-simple-instructions#latest

It does work as can be seen from the many pictures posted here; it might not be as "easy" as Facebook or other sites but it can be done .....

keithfullmeryahoocom

Quadster--what did you use for a master cylinder for Matt's set-up.   I'm going the same way...k

DirtyDave

PaulButler said:

For those struggling to post pictures here (we did have a couple of issues earlier in the year - now fixed) I'll refer you to Rick Clark's post about how to do it :

http://openforum.hetclub.org/discussion/165387/attach-a-file-pictures-files-is-working-here-are-some-simple-instructions#latest

It does work as can be seen from the many pictures posted here; it might not be as "easy" as Facebook or other sites but it can be done .....

Thanks

That "Attach a File" had been missing.

Quadster

keithfullmeryahoocom said:

Quadster--what did you use for a master cylinder for Matt's set-up.   I'm going the same way...k

You purists may not like this but a modern dual 8" booster mounted on the firewall with a vintage looking cast iron dual master--all purchased from summit--Tough stuff--claims to be USA made. Proportioning valve with bracket mounts to the whole setup.

Used a hudson pedal assembly from a 54 w/ power brakes--had to make a custom bracket to mount everything. Firewall to frame bracket had to be trimmed on the side a little--what do those things do anyway besides hold the horns?

I'm going to drive this one with hand controls so I need a strong set of brakes.

Photo of setup attached

RichardD

Understand need for more 'power' with hand brakes, but wanted to clarify to some that normal operation with my type front disks only require the stock master cylinder.  Have never wanted them more 'touchy'. All mods in photos.

>>>  https://picasaweb.google.com/101895503406236284856/53HudsonBrakeMods?authkey=Gv1sRgCIagq_Whn5O3Kg

Edit: Note this is with single piston type I have and not multi-piston Wilwoods, etc. large volume calipers. So this is not a blanket statement. What will work and what is 'best' might differ--ie: 2 circuits are safer than one.

Ol racer

Keith,

That is an excellent Master Cylinder Set Up.Im glad you didnt remove the brace. They serve a purpose with the Unibody structure.

airbrushguy

Has anyone installed this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181763283657?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

bob ward

I'd always figured that the braces on LWB stepdowns have no structural purpose, they were mainly cosmetic. This was at a time when the concept of having a front sub frame bolted to the sheet metal cabin was very new, the braces reassured customers that it was a sound design.

The braces were never fitted to the SWB stepdowns.