262 to 308 engine swap?

50ClubCoupe

Now that my 3 spd tranny has been refreshed, I've been going over my '50 262  and the compression is pretty low (sub 90 psi) and I've been contemplating a rebuild but, to do it right, it's going to be a pretty penny.  Recently, I found a professionally rebuilt 1951 308 (with all receipts) and the cost is about the same as a quote I got for a  rebuild on my 262.  I had read that the 308 should be a direct bolt-in replacement but is there anything I'm missing?  Will the steering column fit? Does the radiator need to be moved? I don't know what tranny was behind the 308 but I've got a brand new 10" flywheel, clutch and pressure plate so I'm assuming I can bolt it right to my 3 spd tranny.

Just received the block casting numbers from the 308 for those that can decipher them:  D181 - 304299 - CWC 4

Ric West IN

That's right, there should be no issues with this swap.

What about rear axle ratio?  A Hornet with the stock 3 speed ratio (4and 1/9 will not be "happy"

on the highway.  There are several options for dealing with this problem.

"Ric"

50ClubCoupe

Great, thanks for the reassurance Ric.  I hadn't yet thought about the rear end.  Got any recommendations? I can get a '54 4.55 Dana Spicer (?) locally for a good price and it says it includes a . 

I'm used to screaming my hopped-up Model A at 55mph so I'm hoping to cruise a little more comfortably in the Commodore

Geoff

Steer away from the 4.55 rear, it is a stump-puller. 

Lance

Geoff C., N.Z. said:

Steer away from the 4.55 rear, it is a stump-puller. 

50ClubCoupe said:

Great, thanks for the reassurance Ric.  I hadn't yet thought about the rear end.  Got any recommendations? I can get a '54 4.55 Dana Spicer (?) locally for a good price and it says it includes a . 

I'm used to screaming my hopped-up Model A at 55mph so I'm hoping to cruise a little more comfortably in the Commodore

You will want to use a Dana 3:07 or a Hudson built 3:58. The Dana you have can take gears for a 3:07

Ric West IN

Casting # 304299  is a "wide" block 232/262. Depends on the stroke.  Hornet is 304539.

Your 1950 would have a Hudson built rear end,unless someone along the way switched it for the

newer Dana/spicer.  You would be happiest with the 3.07 Dana for highway cruising

"Ric"

50ClubCoupe

Wow Ric, you may have just saved me a bunch of money and a huge hassle!  I was wanting a 308 to upgrade but if it's a 232/262 then that changes things. Thank you!! Can I ask where you found that information so I can inform the seller?

thanks to all for the comments on the best rear ratio too.

Glowplug

Go to my website engine page top center for decoding information http://hudsonrestoration1948-54.com/Engine.htm

50ClubCoupe

Thanks Ken, I did check that out after Ric's post.  I just spoke with the seller and it is indeed a 262 wide block.  He had advertised it as a '51 motor with Twin H and I made the incorrect assumption it was a 308.  It's still a great motor, with a full work-up done to it, so I'm still considering the purchase.  I'm just trying to balance my options of either pulling mine and rebuilding it or just bolting this one in and going for several thousand miles before I worry about rebuilding my original numbers-matching motor.  I have an opportunity to get this motor for less than the cost of having one rebuilt so it seems like a win.

The one concern I have with the rebuilt motor is that it's been sitting on a stand since the rebuild.  He said his brother was turning it over periodically but it's been sitting for at least a few years…in a temp controlled garage.  I just worry about seals drying out or rubber parts being brittle/stiff due to lack of use.

Glowplug

Run the engine at the owners before purchase. In my younger years I started engines out of the car on the garage floor! Maybe not a good idea, but it kept me from using scarce resources to buy junk.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

50,

There are many, widely varied definitions of the term "rebuilt". Although receipts don't necessarily prove what actually went into the rebuild, you might let us know what parts/services are that went into it, if you aren't familiar with the innards of the Hudson engines.

Running it may not tell you details like bearing fit......A knock/low pressure may not appear until the oil comes up to temp. (been there). 

Signed,

Burned Before

Frankvintagefullflowcom

PS,

In case you'd like to put a new ring gear on your original flywheel (keep as spare, sell, etc.) I have a couple of new replacements I'd part with for $100 + ship.

Just a thought.

F

50ClubCoupe

Great recommendation, I just need to figure how to accomplish that. It's currently hanging on an engine stand without a flywheel and starter. I might be able to bring my flywheel, starter, coil and battery to get her to kick but I'm mostly concerned with leaking seals which would require a decent running. I'll bring my bore scope and some other tools if I close the deal. Still weighing the options since it's not the motor I had originally been hoping for.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

50,

It's always a crap shoot unless you did the work yourself. Like any engine, there are many things that can cause grief down the road (literally) that can't be determined by even the closest of inspections. It costs no more to rebuild a 308 vs a 232/262 so you might want to hold out for one to drop in your lap (maybe a poor choice of words) so that you have control over the process.

Good luck.

F

50ClubCoupe

Thanks F. - The rebuild was pretty inclusive. Bored 30 over, new Pistons, pins and rings. Crank ground 10 under with new bearings on the rods and mains. New cam bearings. Valve job, new valves, guides and springs.....lifters too I believe. New timing chain. Block magna fluxed, surfaced. Head fluxed and surfaced. Crank was fluxed as well. The motor also comes with a full twin H setup installed. The work was performed at C&P Machine on Ft. Wayne IN. He's also throwing in a good radiator. Thanks for the offer on the ring gear. I just purchased a whole flywheel from Wildrick to replace mine....just missed you.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

50,

Sounds like they covered all of the bases. Heck.....I might even want it!

Is it a "Twin H" for the 262? Those are a bit harder to come by than the 308 version.

F

50ClubCoupe

Yes, twin h 262…..that's why I'm so tempted!! I sent you a message with some more details and asking for some opinions.

Ol racer

Sounds like a good buy so I suggest buying rather than rebuilding yours if your unfamilar with rebuilding....It getstimely & costly working them thru a local Machine Shop. TRY negoiating a serious best offer since not a Hornet.. Be sure to prime if possible before starting ( I take and old Dist cut the  gear off shaft then spin the Pump with drill until oil comes out an opening. After starting retorque the Head a couple times. Your Gears will be fine.262 Are fine Motors..

Frankvintagefullflowcom

I don't mean to offend, but.........not sure what engine you are thinking about but you can't turn the Hudson pump independently of the cam in those engines. The pump drives the distributor, not visa versa.

Frank

50ClubCoupe

I had thought about priming last night but I wasn't sure if it worked like my old fords.....sounds like it doesn't. Is there a way that I can prime it before attempting to start it? Maybe rig a way to send oil through the sender hole? I know I can pull the plugs and turn it over once installed but I'd hate to even turn the crank a couple of times if the journals are dry from sitting so long. I'm sure they used the sticky assembly lube but I doubt it would still be coated if sitting so long.

lostmind

There are pressurized oiling kits available. Oil filled can with flex hose. Sometimes come with rebuilt engines.

Frankvintagefullflowcom

50,

I use a pressure pot connected, as you had surmised, at the pressure-switch port. That primes the pump as well, running oil backwards through the pump (at a low rate since it's passing through the normal internal pump clearances), pre-filling it and giving you instant O/P at start-up.

The "small block" and FE block Fords (and many others) can be primed by removing the distributor and driving the pump with a hex shaft from above, but that's not possible with the Hudson. An up-side is that, since the pump drives the distributor, if the pump ceases to turn (stripped gear, sheared drive pin, etc.) the distributor also stops, killing the engine instantly. In the opposite driver/driven scenario, the engine will continue to run, potentially to destruction, if there is no warning light or "looked-at" gauge.

My two-bits worth.

F

Frankvintagefullflowcom

Here's a shot (however poor) of the pressure pot plumbed into the gauge port on the filter base of a 202 Jet. The outlet of the filter base goes to the aforementioned pressure switch port on the engine, just like the 232-262-308. The double filtration (pot and engine) isn't really necessary, it was just a convenient place to attach the pot.

F

50ClubCoupe

I'm curious about the setup too. I was thinking of using a pump sprayer bottle but I'm not sure what PSI is needed to push the oil through. If it's more than 20-30# then maybe I can rig up something using an auxiliary air tank....the $30 deals at Harbor Freight.

Glowplug

Harbor freight sells a brake bleed setup which functions the same way. I believe using oil vs brake fluid would allow for prelube.

Ol racer

Ol racer said:

Sounds like a good buy so I suggest buying rather than rebuilding yours if your unfamilar with rebuilding....It getstimely & costly working them thru a local Machine Shop. TRY negoiating a serious best offer since not a Hornet.. Be sure to prime if possible before starting ( I take and old Dist cut the  gear off shaft then spin the Pump with drill until oil comes out an opening. After starting retorque the Head a couple times. Your Gears will be fine.262 Are fine Motors..

Sorry, should have better clarified that I remove the original pump then install 'temporarily' an oil pump that I removed the Gear then i prime motor using a distributor cut off below the housing leaving the shaft protruding out enough for the drill to spin pump........then re install correct pump and bag the modified pump & shaft to save for nect prime.  It works very well. (Sometimes I come on too late and brief)....

50ClubCoupe

Ken - is this the tool your referring to?  http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/brakes/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html 

-Scott

Glowplug

Yes Scott it is

Frankvintagefullflowcom

For those who inquired about my pot design, first, I must pre-empt the "all-you-gotta-do" and "cantcha-just" replies with the statement that I can't do much of anything the easy or quick way......I need to make a project out of it in order to feel like I've accomplished anything. Personal problem.

So......A sketch and photos follow.

Criteria: No penetrations below liquid level.

             Controlled, uniform pressure by shop air, regardless of volume remaining.

             Controllable discharge rate.

             Last but not least, make it out of crap I have on hand.

Photos:

732, 33, 34) Air enters through the coupler (with regulator attached), passes into the tank via the annular space between the discharge up-tube and the tank attachment fitting. Oil is forced up through the discharge tube, through the globe valve and then through the hose, adapted to whatever connection suits the project.

The "J" tube shown is handy to pre-fill dipper trays in the Splashers through the tappet chamber floor drain holes. That way I can assemble the engine completely without the potential catastrophe of installing a pre-filled tray. (276, 287 [sunglasses suggested], 288, 289)

Sorry about image "insertion" I don't know how to make it go away.

F

 

Glowplug

No question about it, Frank you make your hobby fun...thanks for the post

Frankvintagefullflowcom

That's the goal. If it wasn't fun, I'd have to take up golf.....can't afford that.

F