Here's a dumb question re brake cylinder removal

PaulButler

So I pulled my rear hub off with my brand-new second-hand hub puller without , I have to say, too much drama , swearing or exertion. It popped off quite nicely!

I stripped off the brakes and everything needs work because for one it's stood for so long but it also looks as if the cylinder itself has been in a sorry state for quite a while. When I popped the end covers off there was an awful lot of "gunk" inside it.

So here is the dumb question because I can't figure it out. How the heck do I remove the cylinder from the back plate to properly look at because it seems to me to be an integral part of it!

I have looked in all my books , looked in the online library and there is lots on how to adjust the brakes but nothing that says "undo this, hit that and the cylinder is yours to fix"

Am I being really dumb here and not seeing something simple in front of me?

Glowplug

Paul most wheel cylinders are comprise the components shown in the attached image. The rebuild kits will contain all components except the two pistons that are located behind the external rubber covers. I use a brass drift and tap on one of the Pistons to drive stuck components out of the cylinder.

PaulButler

Thanks Ken,

The pistons in my cylinder are toast as well (is that an English expression I wonder; by it I mean they aren't in good condition).

Looking at what I have to work with I'm not even sure that honing the cylinder will help

Lee ODell

Paul Disconnect the brake line from wheel cyl.. Remove two bolts holding wheel cylinder to backing plate. Wheel cylinders tend to get stuck to backing plate over time. Tap wheel cylinder with hammer it will loosen. On some cars the bleeder valve also need to be removed. Might as well remove it anyway to clean crud out of wheel cylinder. If the wheel cylinders are pitted I suggest replacing them. Lee O'Dell

Glowplug

Folks like Larry Cramer will know if there is a replacement part number for your cylinders.

PaulButler

Thanks Lee ; next job on the list

Ken,

That is looking very much like the way forward.

Today was a good day weather wise over here so I decided to try and free up the rear wheels which were stuck solid after standing so long. Like most things the initial "I'll just do this" kind of expanded a little

Lee ODell

Paul, if wheel cylinders are as bad as you say, it is a good chance the master cylinder is in similar condition. It would be wise to check it out as well and replace all old brake hoses as well. Brake hoses deteriorate from the inside out. Also, if the steel brake lines have never been replace you might consider replacing them as well. They do rust also. On the 47 PU I bought I had to replace the rusty brake lines because of leaking after replacing wheel cylinders, master cylinder and hoses. Keep up the good work Paul. Lee O'Dell

PaulButler

Thanks Lee,

Good advice. I think it's a complete overhaul. Last time I drove it (6 years ago) the brakes weren't that great however with the mechanical assist they were good enough to pass inspection but 6 years of not doing much isn't going to have helped them.

Lee ODell

Paul, your mention of secondary mechanical brake assist reminded me when I bought my 52 Hornet in Las Vegas and drove it home to Burbank, Ca 275 miles. The mechanical system worked so good I didn't realized only the rear brakes were stopping the car. When I got home I did a check of master cylinder for fluid. and the master cylinder was bone dry because of rusted through brake line. I replace the complete brake system. It can be a life saver to make sure the secondary mechanical brake assist is adjusted properly. This was my first experience driving a Hudson and I was not aware any car had secondary mechanical brake assist. That sold me on having such a back up braking system should hydrolic brakes system fail. I have wondered since why Chevy, Ford, Chrysler and all the others did not have this. Hand brakes are about useless to stop a car. A secondary brake system sure would have kept me from going through a chain link fence when the master cylinder failed on my El Camino if it had such a system like Hudson had. Just passing on some memorable and scary experiences. Lee O'Dell

Uncle Josh

 Don't monkey with trying to hone and re-build.  New ones are less than 15 bucks in most cases, and the rebuild kit will cost you 10..

What year/model are you working on. Pre-stepdown are different than stepdown, and pacemaker stepdowns are different than the others.  Pre stepdown eight cylinder and trucks are different than sixes, and rights are different than lefts.

Master cylinders are readily available at NAPA  Again, pre-stepdown's are different than stepdown.

I have all the part numbers.  HETcramerlp@roadrunner.com (drop the HET) or you can post what you're working on here and I'll respond.  Larry Cramer aka Uncle Josh

 

PaulButler

Thanks Larry,

It's a 1939 Hudson 112. $15 would be a good price as I'd need to get them shipped to the UK as well.

I'd already decided that rehoning probably wasn't the best way forward tbh.

Uncle Josh

OK, Just checked these out and updated my spreadsheet.  For some reason I didn't have the 36 to 40s listed.

The only difference on the 36 to 47s are the size of the thread, for hose or steel line.  If you could find an adapter at NAPA it would standardize them.  The are all available on Amazon, ebay or Rockauto.

Wheel cylinder	Coni-Seal	WC13221	48-54 Hudson RF	1 1/8 in
Wheel cylinder	Coni-Seal	WC13220	48-54 Hudson LF	1 1/8 in
Wheel cylinder	Coni-Seal	WC13601	40-54 Hudson RR	15/16 in
Wheel cylinder	Coni-Seal	WC13600	40-54 Hudson LR	15/16 in
Wheel cylinder	Wagner	WC78975	36-47 Hudson RR	1 in
Wheel cylinder	Wagner	WC78974	36-47 Hudson LR	1 in
Wheel cylinder	Wagner	WC9336	36-47 Hudson LF	1 in
Wheel cylinder OK, I had them misfiled	Wagner	WC9337	36-47 Hudson RF	1 in

PaulButler

Thanks Larry; a great help and reasonable price at Rockauto as well.

One question ; WC78974 and WC78975. You have both as RR; I presume one is LR?

Uncle Josh

BTW, master cylinders are listed here

Brake Master Cylinder	Napa-United		36-47	4360
Brake Master Cylinder	Napa-United		48-54	3081
Brake Master Cylinder	Napa-United		Jet	2796

Nerve_Center

Hi Paul. Be careful that they match your brake shoes. Brake shoes for 39 112's had a unique slotted fitting to the cylinders as opposed to the more common pins. You might need to salvage these from the old cylinders for use on new ones.

PaulButler

Thanks for that; I need to do some more research before I take the plunge. Being in the UK I can't wander back to my local NAPA unfortunately and get something replaced

Uncle Josh

Thanks Paul.  Typical graphic error.  I fixed it.  I haven't tried to put 'em both on the same side...yet.

Uncle Josh

And I see from the manual that a Pacemaker uses 1 1/16 cylinders on the front, since the shoes are 1 3/4. The rest of the stepdowns standardized on the 2 1/4 shoe in the front.

BTW, Dave Konstansik is relining shoes for $50 an axle

On my 36 with the cam adjuster on the secondary, I got 47 shoes which both Auto Zone and Advance listed but not 36, and drilled a hole for the cam adjuster.   

Frankvintagefullflowcom

Be careful that they are "High Anchor Pin" shoes. I have been sold a few sets (for '47 six) that look like Hudson shoes but were for Ford (and possibly others) that were standard anchor pin location. If in doubt, have your shoes relined, emphasizing that you want your shoes back. I learned this one the hard way. If you want the brakes to actually work when you are done, you should also have the shoes arced to match the drum before installation.

Just my two bits worth. Frank

PaulButler

Okay ; next question and I may need some help. I have sourced the wheel cylinders via Rockauto and they work out at a great price even being shipped to the UK; price worked out at about $80 for all 4.

Now I need a master cylinder and am struggling to find one; I see ones advertised on eBay for around $65 but have no visibility of how good or otherwise they are.

Larry,

I have tried searching using the part number you quoted above but with no luck so any chance you (or someone) could point me at an actual master cylinder I could look at all please?

Thanks again for all the great help; really appreciated

I have found someone local to me who'll reline the shoes for around £40 ($60) per axle which I thought was a good deal

Geoff

Paul, alternative is to re-line you own cylinder with stainless steel.  NOS ones seem to come up regualrly on ebay.

Geoff 

Ol racer

I echo, Replace Cyl's rather than Hone....

bob ward

This is a 36//7 3 bolt master cylinder, I believe the same item was used in 38/9 and they were also used in Fords of that era.

PaulButler

Thanks all,

Kenneth ; that's the one I was after so has been added to my cart waiting for payday to hit!

bob ward

Looking at the drawings in the workshop manual, the 36 shows a hydraulic stoplight switch in the brake line down near the LH rear wheel.

I can't see from the 38/9 drawing the location of the stoplight switch but it does show only a single brake line coming from the master cylinder and their is a 4 way union near the front LH wheel.

These are drawings for LHD cars of course, Paul's may have a different arrangement.

 

The master cylinder and banjo in my photo is one that I'm fitting to a 35, I'm using the step-down arrangement with a stop switch at the master cylinder.

Nerve_Center

The couple of Oz 39's I've seen have a mechanical switch (and so do the 46's) The center fitting out the end is feeding the rear brake line and the 2 out of the "Y" feed each front wheel. The 46 is different in that respect. Ken U-Tx, I'd like to buy a set. They don't survive well if any cross threading occurs fitting the hard lines. My email is HETghebblethwaite@hotmail.com. (Leave out the HET) Thanks

Nerve_Center

I have a forwarding address in Portland OR which should work better for us.

Nerve_Center

At the risk of hijacking this thread, PayPal OK? OR email me with further details as above.

PaulButler

Glenn,

How does the forwarding address work? Is that just a friend you have that can package things up for you or is it something more sophisicated?

bob ward

Paul, I use shipito.com from time to time for stuff from the US. Its a good option for larger and/or heavier items that don't fit into flat rate USPS boxes. Or for the odd recalcitrant that "don't post nuffin to no foreign countries".

PaulButler

Thanks Bob,

I'll investigate that option as well