What options for overdrive?

jjbubaboy

Hey all,
Looking for advice and ideas for overdrive for my 36T.
Is there options that are feasible without huge cost, and or, major reworking of the frame, body, etc?
Thanks!
Jeff

Val

Jeff, I had an overdrive trans put in my 39 but some modification to the frame was required. Wildrick is the ones who installed it for me so maybe they can shed some light as to what may need be done if none else jumps in  with info for you 
Vic

Jon B

If you could find a 1940 OD (one-year-only) it would "plug right in" with only a driveshaft shortening (I have one in my 1937). 1941 and up OD trans. can be made to fit, with two major challenges: 1) the electric governor switch requires cutting of the frame (or removal of the switch, in which case I'm not sure how you "govern" the OD), and 2) you have to install a column shift because the "later" Hudson transmissions aren't set up for a floor shifter.  

Possibly someone has come up with a work-around for these challenges.

The most feasible ways to get more highway speed, other than OD, would be either be a complete rear end transplant (from a number of 1960's or newer cars with highway ratios) or the installation of the reproduction 3-5/9 rearend gears into the original pumpkin.  

The transplant rear axles could always be unbolted and replaced, to "go back to original", and the repro ring and pinion gears are authentic because Hudson listed them in the parts books.  (Original ones are made of Unobtainium, however.)  I think Ivan Zaremba is selling the repro gearsets but I believe they are over $1000 each. 

jjbubaboy

Thanks Vic and Jon,
Looks like I will ATTEMPT to locate a 40 OD trans....
Hopefully that would be possible and I can keep my arms and legs in the process!!

Yes, I had looked into the rear gears previously thru Ivan and that is just not feasible for me. 
Jeff

Jon B

You might want to consider an "interim" plan, though.  Unless you're planning to live to a very, very old age...

The rear axle transplant (from a newer car with a 3.5 or better ratio) would be fairly easily done, isn't too expensive.  The legendary Gus Souza worked the interchange out and I spoke to him a few months ago, and copied down a lot of what he said.  I'd be happy to send it to you.  He suggests using a '64-76 MoPar axle (different years for different MoPars.  Now, these no longer grow on trees since cars of this era are pretty much off the road, and no longer found in junkyards, but there are specialists who deal in those parts.  And they are a darned site easier to find than a '40 Hudson overdrive.  E-mail me if you're interested and I'll forward the "how-to" that Gus prepared.  XXXdetailed@verizon.net, delete the XXX before sending.

Val

The 1940 O/D trans is hard to come by, I had to go with a later (1950) single lever O/D.

jjbubaboy

Yeah Val, that's pretty much what I figured being a one only year...
Pretty much seems to be my luck all the way around. 
And thanks Jon, I have a Mustang rear I have been working on...
Jeff

Geoff

The later o/d's are much better than the '40, and are easier to get parts for. However, there are modifications to the chassis cross members you will have to make to accommodate the solenoid and governor, plus the obvious one of having to bodgie up a floor shift to fit the later transmission.  Depending on the predominant terrain  in which you are driving, it is much easier to change the rear end with say something like a 3.5 ratio.  It means you will have to change gear more often  going up hills, but there is much more flat driving than hills wherever you are.  I changed the rear end ratio of my Essex many years ago from 5.6:1 to 4-2/3:1 and have never yet found a hill too steep  for me to get over.  That is a 20% drop in engine r.p.m., and makes for much more pleasant driving.  I don't drive any faster than previously, but it runs easier.   And do not expect any great improvement in m.p.g., as the laws of physics dictate that it will take a given amount of fuel to move a given mass a given distance.  My two-bits worth! 
Geoff 

jjbubaboy

Ha ha, thanks Geoff! Didn't expect any better mpg due to its mass!
Just want to work the engine less.
So, for a later o.d. Trans, a single or double lever Unit?
And has anyone ever fabbed up a floor shift for one, or do I need to change
the column out too?
J

Jon B

The floor shift would be easy with the double lever, because the same Warner Gear transmission was used in Studebaker trucks and Jeeps, and their floor shifters bolted right in.  And I know someone who has the '52 double lever transmission installed in his '35 convertible.  The non-overdrive transmission, that is.

The problem is that -- while the non-OD fits fine -- the OD version is too long to clear the X-member.

dlamb67

I heard one time that a downsize Jeep Cherokee (1984-2000) is very close to the original Terraplane axle. I gave up years ago on the 1940 transmission as they are next to impossible to find. The Jeep's are common in salvage yards,not sure of axle ratio. Might be worth looking into. The 4.11s are awesome for hill climbing but 50 is as far as I will push the splasher. And in todays world you always have some clown tailgating you at that speed.

Jon B

I agree that a complete rear axle (with highway-ratio gears) might be the cleanest way to gain speed in a pre-War Hudson.  A lot less messy than mounting an overdrive (and of course you will then have to pull engine, mate the overdrive, and re-install the entire combination, because it is so tight in there).  And the rear axle is a bolt-in change.  Should you wish to "go authentic" again, off it comes and back on goes your Hudson axle housing.

Gus Souza has been working on Hudsons since WWII.  He suggests a 1969 MoPar "B" body car -- the 1969 Plymouth Satellite -- as the best donor of a rear axle transplant for a pre-War Hudson.  I spoke to him (about a year ago) and jotted down all the facts and figures and I will be happy to send the writeup to you if you send me your e-mail address.  Either PM me or e-mail me at XXXdetailed@verizon.net (delete XXX first).

Of course, 1969 Plymouths are themselves antiques and parts are no longer readily available in junkyards.  (Gus has listed the name and phone number of a Satellite guru who sells rearends, by the way.)  So it is possible that the '84 Cherokee axle is "the new Satellite".

dlamb67

I have a 69 Plymouth road runner convertible in the garage and the rear end is staying put in the car, LOL. I would have to measure that one to see if they are close. 

dlamb67

Jon, if you can send me that info. I compared the Terraplane to my 1969 B body axle and there is a 2" difference in the spring perches and the over all axle is 2 1/4 wider on the Plymouth. Kinda curious what Gus came up with.

Jon B

Not sure myself but glad to send you the info and let you sort through it.  It's been e-mailed to you.

jjbubaboy

Thanks dlamb67, and Jon.
I have already transplanted a Mustang 8.8 rear with 3.55 gears (and kept the original).
It works great but I am still spinning the splasher at about 3000 rpm at 55 and was hoping the overdrive would drop it lower to do 60ish. 
Hmmm...what to do.....

terraplane8

jjbubaboy said:

Thanks dlamb67, and Jon.
I have already transplanted a Mustang 8.8 rear with 3.55 gears (and kept the original).
It works great but I am still spinning the splasher at about 3000 rpm at 55 and was hoping the overdrive would drop it lower to do 60ish. 
Hmmm...what to do.....

Seems something is out as a standard '36 Terraplane would do 81mph or so on a 4.1 axle implying around 20mph/1,000rpm. With 3.55 and assuming 16" wheels I would have thought 3,000 rpm would have you tearing along at 69mph?

Geoff

I agree with Denzil.   With a 3.55 rear end you would be spinning the engine around 2,500 r.p.m. @ 60 m.p.h.    Well  within the capability of a 212.  If you were to stick an o/d on top of this you would back to around 1,800 r.p.m., and it would be so gutless it wouldn't pull the steam of a fresh doggy-doo.  

lostmind

jjbubaboy said:

Thanks dlamb67, and Jon.
I have already transplanted a Mustang 8.8 rear with 3.55 gears (and kept the original).
It works great but I am still spinning the splasher at about 3000 rpm at 55 and was hoping the overdrive would drop it lower to do 60ish. 
Hmmm...what to do.....

"about" , did you check it with a tachometer?

60 mph with 4.10 gears and 16" tires is comfortable Without Overdrive , so you should be able to cruise at 70 mph or so.


If you install an overdrive with those gears , you won't be able to stay in OD in hills.

allan

To all the skeptics not running a 4.11 and overdrive on a splasher - I have that combo in my '38, my '40 and my '47.  Though I have not driven my '40 yet, both the '38 and '47 do exceedingly well running 70 and generally no problem with normal hills at that speed.  I am running high compression heads, high octane fuel and 16" tires.  This speed is in the car's power band.  Many in the east have been behind me at one time or another.

Allan

dlamb67

allan, I would love to keep the 4:11s. To me a Terraplane is a hill climber one of the things I love about the cars. I even looked at some of the Borg Warner transmissions . There was one on epay from a Studebaker today. The issue is do I want to hack up my X member ? Also the driveshaft would have to be modified. Someone said they had Wildrick install an overdrive,wonder what was involved with the frame ?

dlamb67

I think the R10 overdrive is the Warner transmission, not sure what years would fit the older Hudson splasher bell housing with the wet clutch.

29sptphaeton

I have a 46 pickup with the straight 8, and a 50 pacemaker o/d in it with a simple toggle switch.
It works great, and really makes a difference when in o/d.

jjbubaboy

Hey all,
Well maybe my tach isn't accurate. I put the numbers in an rpm calculator and according to it I should be just barely turning 3000 at 60 mph...
What is a safe rpm to run that 212 at for an extended time?
Jeff

Jon B

You may be able to avoid hacking up your X member if you remove the enormous governor switch and manually do the kick-in with a dash-mounted pushbutton switch.  

Or, find electronics wizard who could devise a much less "horsey" governor switch that will either feed off either the original location on the OD, or somehow tap off the speedometer cable.  After all, the OD simply needs to know when it hits that magic ''kick in " speed.  It doesn't care where it's getting that info from.  

jjbubaboy

Hey Jon,
What model and manufacturer is the 40 trans?
I figured Borg Warner but interested in what type or model.
Thanks,
Jeff

Jon B

Transmission = Hudson (basic 1932 model)
OD = Borg Warner

jjbubaboy

Hudson made their own trannies?
And then added the overdrive?
J

Jon B

Yup, made them up to '52.  And the rear axles too.

jjbubaboy

Ok,
Yea, still thinking about this....
Couple more brain thoughts
1) What about a columbia 2 speed rear? Is this feasible, has anyone done it in a Hudson?
2) What are the chances of swapping the input shaft from the Huddy trans to say a 40ish 
Nash or Willys ovedrive trans?

Guess I do dream and mumble 'Hudson' in my sleep, thought my wife was joking.....!!
LOL
Jeff

Val

Give Dr Doug a call, he can tell you what trans will be the best fit for your car. He told me which one to get for my car (single lever O/D) and it works great. Night and day difference from the basic 3 speed.