Starting issue #654739254

hornet53

I may have figured out my starting problem. Anybody have any trouble with one of these isolators? Perhaps it being designed for a 12V car, it can't handle the amp load while starting my old 6V?

Drove the Hornet to a show down in Rockingham (worst show ever, by the way, ask me about it). Stopped on the way back to town, and she wouldn't start. Cranked and cranked (slowly as per usual), but wouldn't fire. New points in it this morning (last set, woohoo!) Put on my gloves and went to work. I happened to put my hand on the negative post where the shutoff is and it got hot through my glove very fast. I removed it and bolted the terminal to the post without it and the car cranked and fired right away. Got it back to the storage garage, parked it and went home without retesting it (still frustated about the show I drove 4 hours round trip for).

Any body have similiar problems with this type of batt disconnect? Are there heavy duty ones out there? Should I have put it on the ground strap side of the circuit? Why is it that the guy with 24 in wheels on an 87 Chev Caprice wins best of show? What possible reason could they have for charging $30 to enter a show with 15 cars?

junkcarfann

I have heard of problems with that unit. The one I had worked ok, but then again, I did have problems starting that car, but I never isolated the problem to the green $3.00 flea-market on-off switch.



In my opinion, the best on-off switch is based on the military unit that is (at least was when I was in the Army) handling 24 volts.



It is availabe from numerous hot-rod retailers. I have one on my 6volt Hudson and it is wonderful.



I put mine on the ground side. I am not sure that it makes a difference with performance, but it is better for safety, just as when you disconnect a battery, take the ground off first and put it on last.

Unknown

I never understood the need for disconnects. If you're compelled to disconnect the battery for whatever reason, just remove a cable. At least it will prompt you to look at and, if necessary, clean the post and connector.

Jon B

Here is more than you would ever want to know, on the subject. I too had trouble with the 'little green switch' and raised the issue over at the AACA technical forum. It elicited quite a response, but no concrete answers.



http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB7&Number=416825&Searchpage=2&Main=411142&Words=battery+shut-off&topic=&Search=true#Post416825



Think of the contact area between the cable clamp and the battery terminal. Now think of the contact area of that little screw (in the 'green knob' switch). No comparison. And you need all the contact area you can get, for 6 volts.



By the way, I discarded my green knob switch 5 or 6 years ago and manually disconnected the ground strap from the battery, ever since. Both the battery and the strap terminal got to be very scarred and gouged up, over the years, to the extent that I could not get a good connection. I'd clean off the terminal and clamp each time, bolt the terminal on firmly, hit the starter and all the lights would dim (and starter would just click). So I'd remove the strap, re-clean everything off, and do it all again. This got to be such a pain that I finally got a new battery and strap. Now I'd sure like to find a simple on-off switch to prevent this from happening again!

hornet53

Whew! Glad I'm not the only one. I've been battling the hard start on my car for years now and I wonder if it all started the day I installed that thing.

I use a disconnect because I don't yet get to keep my car at or near my house. My storage unit is 13 miles away. Too far away to be able to smell something burning.

Unknown

I Trlied One, And Had Starting Problems, Threw It Away, Problem Solved, Bill Albright

MikeWA

I have one on a small diesel bulldozer (probably drawing more amps than a 6 volt car), and it works fine. I do screw it down very firmly, probably to the point of increasing the contact area by making a dimple under the screw point. Probably like most of the cheap stuff- quality control issues- too many defective ones get through.

Unknown

bill a wrote:

I Trlied One, And Had Starting Problems, Threw It Away, Problem Solved, Bill Albright

I've seen disconencts with brass used as the clamp. Since brass is not the best conductor, that would explain the problems with them.

hornet53

Well, that was the problem, for sure. Now that 12V conversion doesn't seem so inticing. Especially since I have the P/N for the 6V Pertronix kit.

This forum is one of the best tools we have for these cars. Thanks guys!

Park_W

I have the "little green knobs" on both my 12v Hornet and 6v Commodore 8. No problems with either unless I don't really tighten the one on the Hornet. When I don't, occasionally it'll fail to crank. All I do is tighten the knob a little more and it's OK. It surely wouldn't hurt if someone made one of these critters with a bit more contact area. And by the way, it's better if the disconnect is on the ground terminal. Same logic as always disconnecting the ground cable first and connecting it last. That way you're much less likely to accidentally short any of the hot terminals or wires to ground.

Jon B

Here's an additional word on the ubiquitous 'green knob' cutoff switches.



As you may recall, some people (including myself) feel that they're just barely-acceptable for 6-volt cars, due to the fact that the only electrical contact area occurs along a small segment of the 1/4" threaded stud (to which the knob is installed). Six-volt systems have greater needs than 12-volt systems, and a 1/4" threaded stud isn't going to conduct a whole lot of electricity - especially when it gets corroded. .



I think I have found a remedy, though. You can quickly modify the green-knob switch so that the two halves of the switch actually come apart when not in use.



The battery cable will be clamped to half the green-knob switch, and the other half of the switch will remain clamped to the battery terminal. When you permanently remove the plastic insulating spacer between the two halves (by prying it out of the switch) you will find that there is an enormous flat contact area between the two bronze halves. The green-knob threaded stud now acts merely as a bolt to hold the halves together (when you are running the car). Remove the green knob, and then the battery cable (or ground strap -- whichever you've attached to the green-knob switch) can be pulled away from the battery and parked anywhere. Put the two halves back together for a connection, and secure them with the green knob.



In my opinion this is better than continually unclamping and re-clamping the battery cable (or ground strap) from the battery, as it does not chew up the battery terminals. And, when the two are dis-attached, the surfaces of both can become corroded, requiring a cleanup at each re-attachment.



Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

faustmb

I had one of those disconnects too. It seemed to be intermittant, so I removed it and tossed it out.



I replaced the battery straps after that. If the car is not going to be driven for any more than three days, I remove the strap to keep the battery up. I have had these off dozens of times, and there are no marks on the battery posts or clamps since both surfaces are clean and smooth. If I wasn't too cheap to buy a new battery, I probably could leave the battery hooked up much longer without issues.



Either way, I like to keep things simple with less parts to troubleshoot or worry about.



Matt

J Spencer

I would be interested to know how many use a cutoff switch or disconnect the battery all the time.



I have owned my 51 Pacemaker since March of 1988 and I have yet to disconnect the battery even in the winter time. I have rarely even put a charger on the battery.



I know it is to prevent the possibilty of a fire due to something odd happening, like a voltage regulator sticking and overheating the wiring,( a very rare occurance). If a horn relay stuck for some reason one would think you would here the horn. Unless you store the car away from your home.



My first battery- Intrstate -2XHD- lasted ten years. I then had an Optima 9that came from another Hornet that lasted me five years (it was already four or five years old at the time, as it had set in my garage for at least three years). I now have another Interstate 2XHD in it.



The 2XHD is a very good battery for the stepdowns. Strangel bothe batteries gave up the same way I had been driving the car and shut the car off and it wouldn't crank again. First time I had gone out to get a burger and the second time I had gone to a Hudson meet, left there, came home shut it off and later I went to put it in the garage and no go.



Jim

Geoff

I've been driving my '28 Essex for over 50 years, and have never disconnected the battery. From my experience, these cut-off devices cause more problems than they solve. The only serious problem I had with my car was when the outer sheathing frayed through and shorted on to the transmission casing. Oaky, a battery cut-off may have made it a bit quicker to disconnect, but it may also have melted in the process of disconnecting, due to the excessive current. I am interested to hear what others may think can be prevented by having one. What can go wrong whilst a car is in storage? The only thing that I can think of is that the clock in late rmodels would eventually run the battery down, and may cook the coils in the clock solenoid if the battery voltage wasn't enough to energise the electromagnet fully. There is otherwise nothing that can cause any damage as far as I am aware by leaving the battery in it's box, connected.

Geoff.

[Deleted User]

When I store my car for winter I pull the battery takes 30 seconds then I can keep the battery on the bench and topped up by charging once a month. In spring and summer I never disconnect the battery. Never had it run down while in the car.

faustmb

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

I've been driving my '28 Essex for over 50 years, and have never disconnected the battery. Geoff.

Wow! Thats some battery. I don't think the modern ones last quite that long. I only get about 5 years out of one in this FL climate. Any chance you've been starting it with a crank handle for the last 45 years?



On a more serious note, maybe this is like the Marvel Mystery Oil/ shredded paper thread. My Grandpa always disconnected his batteries, so did my dad, so it just seems natural to me. If the down time is significant, it goes on the bench for a charge.



Matt

Unknown

Maybe we should do a poll to find out how many people unplug all of their electrical appliances before they leave the house. :rolleyes:

hornet53

Most of us don't have 50 year old appliances. I'm pretty sure my Hudson wouldn't pass code either.

RonS

At the very best the green knob switchs will pass only 250 amps through the system .That is just above what a hornet will draw on start up.Forget about GM 6v starters.They pull over 325 amps. Those green knobs, at best, a re ok on 12v cars.Also the threads don't close down flat and only a portion of the nut makes contact with theknob(slide a thin piece of paper between the contact parts)JC Whitney sells a "knife" switch rated at 500amps.Works great .RE. leaving the batt connected. Well If you have a electric clock it may draw just enough to make you wish you dised the batt.Also original (non-quartz) clocks have contact points that close to rewind.they will need service.Alot! Disconecting lets me sleep better at night.Ron

Unknown

hornet53 wrote:

Most of us don't have 50 year old appliances. I'm pretty sure my Hudson wouldn't pass code either.

Yes, but how many people are living in a hosue with 50+ year old wiring? Just because something is new doesn't guarantee it is without fault just as Hudsons being old doesn't predispose them to fault.

Unknown

I have installed a sealed switch recessed in the wood part of the floor in my 29 Hudson along with 3/0 copper cable and solderd all the ends. I got all the stuff to do this from www.wiringproducts.com and it sure made a big improvment on starting the old girl. The battery is under the seat in the 29 making it a pain in the butt to disconnect it. Now all i do is get in, lift a small bit of the mat and turn it on or off. Take care, Ron

[Deleted User]

faustmb wrote:

Wow! Thats some battery. I don't think the modern ones last quite that long. I only get about 5 years out of one in this FL climate. Matt

We're lucky to get 2 years on any battery here, though Optimas have seemed to do alright for me. I'd say, if you're going to let the car sit for a length of time.....pulling the battery seems to me to be "better safe that sorry."

Unknown

jsrail wrote:

We're lucky to get 2 years on any battery here, though Optimas have seemed to do alright for me. I'd say, if you're going to let the car sit for a length of time.....pulling the battery seems to me to be "better safe that sorry."

Pulling the battery is a good suggestion since there is a slight chance that it could leak and/or have an internal short and explode.

Unknown

I used that type all the time and over a number of years I have had only one go bad. they are cheap so keep a few with me. the main thing is large 6 volt battery cables and a good ground. My 49 has after I replaced the motor mounts and cleaned the ground when I put a clutch in it in 2004 all the light are bright. It has a good ground so it works like it should. I can drive at interstate speed for several hours and stop for a brake. come back in 5 minutes or more and car starts when I push the start button. I would suggest you check your grounds. Jerry jbmiller782@comcast.net

Geoff

Dave53-7C wrote:

Pulling the battery is a good suggestion since there is a slight chance that it could leak and/or have an internal short and explode.

Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening?

Unknown

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Has anybody ever heard of this actually happening?

Yes, I have. I wish my late father-in-law were alive to tell you how he was temporarily blinded when a battery exploded in his face. How does that answer suite you?

Jon B

A few people have posted, here, that they see little sense in disconnecting the battery. I don't wish to argue with them (I never win an argument, and why make enemies anyway?), but there is a potential for disaster.



Many of our cars still have some semblance of the original wiring remaining, often hidden where we can't see it (such as under the dashboard). The cloth fabric on this wiring is disintegrating, and from time to time pieces of it simply fall off (just through vibration in the car), exposing bare wire. Then the wire can short out -- either on a metal body part nearby (especially if the wire passes through a hole in the body and the rubber grommet has worn away) or on an equally-exposed wire adjacent to it.



Now I will give an actual example of what can happen.



Some of you have heard of the legendary 1946 'Golden Hudson' convertible, which was awarded by Hudson to the person who drove an antique car the farthest distance to the 1946 Golden Anniversary of the Automobile, in Detroit. Nowadays it's been restored to beautiful, like-new condition. But it wasn't always like that.



One day, in the early 1970's or late 1960's, it was sitting in the garage of its owner (the gent who had won it in 1946), George Green, in Lambertville, New Jersey. Suddenly Mr. Green saw smoke pouring out the garage and called the fire department. When he opened the door, the Golden Hudson burst into flames. It ultimately burned to a crisp; there was nothing but a charred and slightly warped shell remaining. I was told that the fire department authorities judged that the fire originated either in the turn signal switch or the electric clock.



This sort of conflagration doesn't happen often, but it only has to happen once to ruin your day. That's why I always disconnect my battery, when storing the car for more than a day or so.

Geoff

Dave53-7C wrote:

Yes, I have. I wish my late father-in-law were alive to tell you how he was temporarily blinded when a battery exploded in his face. How does that answer suite you?

Thank you for your reply. I have never experienced any problems with flat, overcharged, or maltreated batteries, so was curious to see if they did actually cause any damage. Did the battery actually disintegrate, or flash up from the vents? I did have one battery short circuit internally, hissing an spitting for a while before it just went dead. I am aware that there are dangerous fumes emitted when batteries are being charged, but had never heard of one exploding before. Best wishes,

Geoff.

Unknown

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Thank you for your reply. I have never experienced any problems with flat, overcharged, or maltreated batteries, so was curious to see if they did actually cause any damage. Did the battery actually disintegrate, or flash up from the vents? I did have one battery short circuit internally, hissing an spitting for a while before it just went dead. I am aware that there are dangerous fumes emitted when batteries are being charged, but had never heard of one exploding before. Best wishes,

Geoff.

You're welcome Geoff. The battery that exploded in my late father-in-law's face was found to have suffered an internal short. Arcing occured between the lead plates, above the level of the electrolyte, and caused the gases to explode. This was determined by an investigation ordered by the municipal bomb and arson squad since my father-in-law worked for the city where we lived at that time. With gases emitted by batteries being so explosive, people have always been advised not to smoke or cause spark or flame to occur near them.



On a different note, I've had battery cases split, terminals come loose and electrolyte leak as the result of manufacturing defects.



Those batteries can be dangerous little buggers.

Unknown

Dave53-7C wrote:

Yes, I have. I wish my late father-in-law were alive to tell you how he was temporarily blinded when a battery exploded in his face. How does that answer suite you?

I don't think answers NEED to be suitable! They just need to be answers. Geoff was simply asking a question that many of us have never experienced so what would be wrong with a polite answer to a polite question?

Unknown

Jimalberta wrote:

I don't think answers NEED to be suitable! They just need to be answers. Geoff was simply asking a question that many of us have never experienced so what would be wrong with a polite answer to a polite question?

Please, unless you can read my mind and know my thoughts, don't take it upon yourself to critique my responses. If you took the time to read my further response before jumping to conclusions, you would have discovered that I provided a polite, in depth explaination.