Carb problem (WA-1)
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My car has a 1950 232 motor with a WA-1 carb. I'm trying to get it on the road after many years of sitting. I had it running about a year ago and drove it about 10 miles, but since then have just occasionally run the motor for 20 minutes or so in the driveway.
I can start it only by placing my hand over the carb throat to draw in gas, and keeping the motor running requires constant feathering of the accelerator. The motor occasionally revs up, then suddenly dies. The last couple of times I've tried driving it around the neighborhood, the motor seemed to run smoothly but suddenly died, leaving me to coast or tow back to my driveway (depending on which direction I'd driven!).
Gas seems clean and fuel pump is OK, but maybe I did something wrong when I last rebuilt the carb. I did have to reuse an air horn gasket, because the kit didn't contain one. Ignition also seems OK (dwell and timing, but I'm not so sure about the vacuum advance).
Do these problems sound familiar to anyone? I just removed the carb, a few minutes ago, and plan to disassemble and clean it. Anything special to look for?
I can start it only by placing my hand over the carb throat to draw in gas, and keeping the motor running requires constant feathering of the accelerator. The motor occasionally revs up, then suddenly dies. The last couple of times I've tried driving it around the neighborhood, the motor seemed to run smoothly but suddenly died, leaving me to coast or tow back to my driveway (depending on which direction I'd driven!).
Gas seems clean and fuel pump is OK, but maybe I did something wrong when I last rebuilt the carb. I did have to reuse an air horn gasket, because the kit didn't contain one. Ignition also seems OK (dwell and timing, but I'm not so sure about the vacuum advance).
Do these problems sound familiar to anyone? I just removed the carb, a few minutes ago, and plan to disassemble and clean it. Anything special to look for?
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Comments
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Oooh, letting the gas dry out from old carbs can cause the leather seal on the accelerator pump to go bad. Unless you're getting used to coasting or getting towed, I'd say it's time for a carb rebuild.
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if to start you have to put your hand over the throat...aren't you enrichening the mixture by reducing the volume of air? a lean mixture is the result of an vacuum leak in the intake or insufficient fuel which can be caused by too low of a float level..(among other things) are you sure the float level is correct? before you start the car what do you see down the throat? as you look down the throat prior to starting what do you see when you manually move the throttle linkage to the high speed stop? you should see a very nice stream of fuel. if not the accelerator pump has no gas to shoot or cannot shoot the gas it has. regards, tom0
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John-51HP wrote:
Walt here. If you do not have the proper tools, the Carter carburetor overhaul tool kit, the carb will never be correct. The meter rod tool is the most important. If you open the carb up and you see varnish you better start at the gas tank all the way to the carb. With gas line disconnected at both ends, spray BRAKE KLEEN into the line, have someone hold a rag at the other end and use air to blow it out. Check the rag and if dirty you will have to do it till it comes out clean. This means fuel pump too.My car has a 1950 232 motor with a WA-1 carb. I'm trying to get it on the road after many years of sitting. I had it running about a year ago and drove it about 10 miles, but since then have just occasionally run the motor for 20 minutes or so in the driveway.
I can start it only by placing my hand over the carb throat to draw in gas, and keeping the motor running requires constant feathering of the accelerator. The motor occasionally revs up, then suddenly dies. The last couple of times I've tried driving it around the neighborhood, the motor seemed to run smoothly but suddenly died, leaving me to coast or tow back to my driveway (depending on which direction I'd driven!).
Gas seems clean and fuel pump is OK, but maybe I did something wrong when I last rebuilt the carb. I did have to reuse an air horn gasket, because the kit didn't contain one. Ignition also seems OK (dwell and timing, but I'm not so sure about the vacuum advance).
Do these problems sound familiar to anyone? I just removed the carb, a few minutes ago, and plan to disassemble and clean it. Anything special to look for?0 -
John I had the same problem with my 232 same carb ( I think ) on my 54 wasp. I fiddled with that carb and rebuilt it several times with the same problem always showing up. Then Bill A suggested a new condensor and I thought he was nuts but tried it and ...guess what....he was right. A new condensor took care of the problem. It was electrical not a fuel problem. Your carb does not need a good accelerator pump to idle correctly, its only used for accelerating smoothly.0
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Jimalberta wrote:John I had the same problem with my 232 same carb ( I think ) on my 54 wasp. I fiddled with that carb and rebuilt it several times with the same problem always showing up. Then Bill A suggested a new condensor and I thought he was nuts but tried it and ...guess what....he was right. A new condensor took care of the problem. It was electrical not a fuel problem. Your carb does not need a good accelerator pump to idle correctly, its only used for accelerating smoothly.
Your experience with the condensor should go into a DIY Hudson owner shop manual. It's little quirks like this that stump the best
of them. Yes, a good idle circuit is required. However, I'm simply saying that the most common problem that impacts our carbs when they are left to sit and go dry of gas for an extended period of time is failure of the accelerator pump.0 -
I second the opinion about a dried out leather accelerator pump. If they dry out completely, the leather will disintegrate, go all through the float bowl, and plug up the jets, resulting in little or no fuel flow.
DAMHIK0 -
I had a similar problem with my 54 WASP..tried everything, rebuilt carb, new fuel pump, new condensor and coil..It would idle great and I could drive it about a block or two then it would conk out...
Well once after it conked out I looked inside the carb and noticed a mist a vapor..Hmmmm
Come to find out that MY HEAT RISER was NOT operating properly...As the car warmed up the hot exhaust continued to go to the carb and it VAPORIZED the gas..
SOLUTION.. I disabled the Heat Riser..who the hell needs em any way.0 -
Wonderful information, guys! Thanks for your attention to this problem. A little "progress" report --- and you know how "progress" goes with old cars: the first step is to move farther AWAY from a functioning or attractive vehicle...
The carb is now disassembled, waiting for a kit from Dave and Tim. There was a white coating all over the leather piston, and a thin layer of white crust on the flat top of the accelerator pump that I was able to peel off in two pieces. I haven't measured the float drop, but it looks as if it's hanging pretty low, suggesting that Tom (tigermoth) might be onto something. (I measured it carefully when I installed it, and maybe it's OK, but it looks low.)
Walt et al, I had to repair the gas tank (it was quite something, after sitting for almost 10 years) and used some new silver sealer in it. I forget the brand but it is a well known one. I hope that white stuff in the carb isn't from the sealer. (I tested it, in a coffee can, for a week or so, and it remained solid and the gas clear.) There is no varnish in the system and the gas appears clean, pumping well into the glass pre-carb filter after a couple of revs. I also have a glass in-line filter roughly under the rear floor and it looks clear. I do not have professional test equipment and have never heard of a meter rod tool, but have driven thousands of miles in this car with WA-1's in which I've installed new kits.
The condenser brings back bad memories... I suspect that's what led to the poor Pacemaker's 10-year hiatus. I barely made it home from a 1,100 mile trip, the car had so little power and was a real bear to start. I did all kinds of things... even had the head off... before someone suggested that stupid little condenser. It's now new, but of course that's no guarantee it isn't bad.
I'll keep the group posted. It's wonderful to have access to the experiences and insights of fellow Hudsonites!0 -
John-51HP wrote:I also have a glass in-line filter roughly under the rear floor and it looks clear.
You're a braver man than I am. I'm going to run a plastic one when I redo the fuel lines. I won't be able see through it, but at least I won't worry about shattering it with a rock kicked up by the tires.0 -
hornet53 wrote:You're a braver man than I am. I'm going to run a plastic one when I redo the fuel lines. I won't be able see through it, but at least I won't worry about shattering it with a rock kicked up by the tires.
Well, "braver" is a very kind word for it
Actually, the in-line filter is nestled in the corner between the frame and rear floor, well ahead of the rear wheel and protected from the front by a crossmember (IIRC). It's small, and it's very heavy glass. I bought a couple of them from J. C. Whitney years ago. Hope the replaceable elements are still available. 0 -
John-51HP wrote:
By not using the correct tools, you are burning more gas than you should or running lean. This is not good for the engine. Read your Hudson manual and you will see the tools needed to do the correct job. Walt.Wonderful information, guys! Thanks for your attention to this problem. A little "progress" report --- and you know how "progress" goes with old cars: the first step is to move farther AWAY from a functioning or attractive vehicle...
The carb is now disassembled, waiting for a kit from Dave and Tim. There was a white coating all over the leather piston, and a thin layer of white crust on the flat top of the accelerator pump that I was able to peel off in two pieces. I haven't measured the float drop, but it looks as if it's hanging pretty low, suggesting that Tom (tigermoth) might be onto something. (I measured it carefully when I installed it, and maybe it's OK, but it looks low.)
Walt et al, I had to repair the gas tank (it was quite something, after sitting for almost 10 years) and used some new silver sealer in it. I forget the brand but it is a well known one. I hope that white stuff in the carb isn't from the sealer. (I tested it, in a coffee can, for a week or so, and it remained solid and the gas clear.) There is no varnish in the system and the gas appears clean, pumping well into the glass pre-carb filter after a couple of revs. I also have a glass in-line filter roughly under the rear floor and it looks clear. I do not have professional test equipment and have never heard of a meter rod tool, but have driven thousands of miles in this car with WA-1's in which I've installed new kits.
The condenser brings back bad memories... I suspect that's what led to the poor Pacemaker's 10-year hiatus. I barely made it home from a 1,100 mile trip, the car had so little power and was a real bear to start. I did all kinds of things... even had the head off... before someone suggested that stupid little condenser. It's now new, but of course that's no guarantee it isn't bad.
I'll keep the group posted. It's wonderful to have access to the experiences and insights of fellow Hudsonites!0 -
I just received the carb kit from Williamsfield Motors; great service! I only ordered it two days ago.
Walt, I have a couple of early-50s Motor Manuals and looked at their section on WA-1's. I see what you mean about the metering rod tool. Do you, or anyone else on the forum, know how I might obtain one, and the other small specialized tools recommended for servicing the Carter WA-1?
PS: No doubt you're right about the risks of popping in new kits without the proper tools, and I'd rather do it right... but I used to get mileage in the 23-24 mpg range on long highway trips when the Pacemaker was on the road, and was very pleased with that, for that big a car.0 -
walt's garage-53 wrote:By not using the correct tools, you are burning more gas than you should or running lean. This is not good for the engine. Read your Hudson manual and you will see the tools needed to do the correct job. Walt.
From whence does one obtain the proper tools???0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
Geoff, those of us that have the complete Carter Carb overhaul tool kit will not sell them for where will we get to replace them? I also have the United-Delco overhaul complete tool kit, for GM cars, and the Ford carb overhaul tool kit. I started in business in 1945 and am still doing work on Hudson cars. Throw in a Ford, a GM or a Chrysler once in awhile. My complete tools are to be given to a young fellow that wants to continue doing what I'm doing. I've been offered piles of money but as long as I keep doing carbs, they stay with me. Walt.From whence does one obtain the proper tools???0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:From whence does one obtain the proper tools???
The same place you can get anything (almost)...eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130292773051&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us
Currently at $26 plus outrageous shipping.0 -
I've just sent off for a rebuild kit for the WA-1 carb in my 1950 Pacemaker, but reading this forum discussion has me worried that I won't be able to do a proper job on the carburetor. I've never done such a job and I don't have any special tools so now I'm concerned that I may have spent my money unwisely. I do have a friend who is a professional mechanic, though I'm sure he doesn't have the special tools for this job, but I may ask him to do the rebuild.
middletom0 -
I got all my Carter tools from my Dad. I have that case that Royer shows it has about 135 specialized tools in it. Rebuilding a Carter carb is SO much nicer with the right tools. Less chance of damaging the jets and seats.
Those tools are on eBay all the time. Do not worry about getting the complete set its to handle all Carter carbs. Look at the rebuild guide it will tell you which gauges you need you can buy those cheap or get someone who have them to make you a template and make your own. Lots of times Carter sold cheap cardboard gauges for float and needle heights you can pick those up.0 -
Ron P wrote:
John from the Carburetor Shop will only sell you the metering rod tools with rebuild kits. The quality of the kits however, is probably the best, most complete ones I've seen available. More new parts are supplied than with the 'Daytona' kits.
The reason he won't sell the rod tool separately is because one particular group of 'car enthusiasts' (I can't remember if it was the Jeep guys or the Studebaker guys) were cleaning him out of tools, and not buying the kits. I imagine he makes his money on the kits. My two cents....0 -
Looking at those individual tool prices I may need to sell my tools I might be able to buy another Hudson LOL0
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It is possible to tune the WA1 carburettor without the prescribed tools. In fact due to changed specific gravities and viscosity of modern fuels, the actual settings specified may not work. I have found that with the grade of unleaded fuel we have here that the float level has to be lowered 1/8" from specification, and the metering pin also lowered, otherwise the car will run far too rich. What ethanol blended fuels are going to do I have yet to find out.
Geoff.0 -
Geoff I have the great big Carter repair book. That if you throw it at someone they die instantly. Weighs about 20 Ibs. It has a section about the specific gravities of fuel. Those old Carter people had that stuff covered and it discusses how to compensate. Float levels etc. Nothing new under the sun. Even back then the fuels were different blends.0
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Dang! I was just going to present my new invention to the world too. It's called a wheel.0
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Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:Dang! I was just going to present my new invention to the world too. It's called a wheel.
Good one-:D LOL0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:It is possible to tune the WA1 carburettor without the prescribed tools. In fact due to changed specific gravities and viscosity of modern fuels, the actual settings specified may not work. I have found that with the grade of unleaded fuel we have here that the float level has to be lowered 1/8" from specification, and the metering pin also lowered, otherwise the car will run far too rich. What ethanol blended fuels are going to do I have yet to find out.
Geoff.
Geoff: I am in the midst of re-building a WA-1 968S and will retrieve all parts from bucket of carb cleaner later today. So, if I understand correctly, I should set the leaded seam on the float at 5/8 inch from the bowl edge (rather than 1/2 inch as per kit instructions)? Always have used Shell 89 octane (no ethanol as far as I can tell from vendor info) in the 308 Twin-H. Never had a problem with this particular blend. Thanks and best wishes. ArtS0 -
Art, I would initially set at factory specs, and lower it only if you have problems with over-rich running. I'm talking about fuel we have in New Zealand, which largely comes from Singapore refineries, hence it could be different from yours. However I know several folk who have now cured the problem of over-rich running by lowering the so-called "float level". This is a physical setting between the seam on the float and the edge of the bowl lid, with the top inverted. If the specific gravity varies it will of course alter the actual level of fuel in the bowl. Good luck,
Geoff.0 -
Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:
Better stick with the Carter setting, 1/2 inch. Lower the float and you may have hesitation going around corners or starving going up steep grades. Walt.Art, I would initially set at factory specs, and lower it only if you have problems with over-rich running. I'm talking about fuel we have in New Zealand, which largely comes from Singapore refineries, hence it could be different from yours. However I know several folk who have now cured the problem of over-rich running by lowering the so-called "float level". This is a physical setting between the seam on the float and the edge of the bowl lid, with the top inverted. If the specific gravity varies it will of course alter the actual level of fuel in the bowl. Good luck,
Geoff.0 -
so how do you know what the metering rods are set at if you don't have the proper tool. Is there another way to determine or can we make a tool fairly simply?0
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Jimalberta wrote:so how do you know what the metering rods are set at if you don't have the proper tool. Is there another way to determine or can we make a tool fairly simply?
Jim,
Well, I'm sure others know more about this than I, but I don't think you can technically set your metering rods per the book spec., or know exactly where they are without the tool. It measures from an arbitrary point right on the main jet's vortex up to the linkage you'd bend to adjust it. I have access to computer aided layout and manufacturing tools (CAD and CNC), and make a lot of my own parts with them, and I determined after seeing one of the tools, that I'd rather fork up the thirty bucks for the real one. Yeah, you could build one, but not precisely without spending a fair amount of time on it.0 -
thanks Hudsonguy, if the tools are available readily and around $30 it would be worth the investment.0
This discussion has been closed.
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