A Classic Dilemma
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Well, here goes people!
As some may know I recently purchased the 50 Pacemaker from MA. I bought it (sight unseen) because it appeared to have a good body and interior. It didn't run.
It arrived this Saturday morning unscathed from the long trip and I got my first look at it. It is a beautiful machine. On first look it does seem to have some minor rust in some spots on the body below the lower trim piece on both sides. Poking it doesn't send the screwdriver through the panel thank goodness. It is undercoated throughout the underside and all inside the trunk, but it doesn't appear to be a recent job either. The person I bought it from said it had a head gasket leak and when he tried to replace it, he broke off a few head bolts! Hence, the non-running. It is equiped with the drive-master option. It also has matching numbers. Someone has added an aftermarket a/c unit and radio as well as a 12 volt battery to run these. Otherwise it appears that everything else is still set to run off the 6 volt. It has been painted once; now black w/ white top, prior "revue red" (the firewall still shows this original color).
I have the original sales order and service policy when it was purchased on 8 April 1950 by a Mr. John Barringer from Kalmbach Motor Sales in Toledo, OH. I have one polaroid of the car as originally painted. I have other pics when the car had been painted as it is now, with one showing a trophy which may have been won at a car show. The car has been sitting garaged for the last 10 years in MA. I believe it was once owned by folks in HET.
Back to the DILEMMA!!!!
I was born a hotrodder. I bought my first car when I was 13, a 53 Chevy 210 Wagon w/ a 283 and 3 on the floor. I owned 3 cars before I had a drivers license! But my dream has always been to build a "lead sled" of my own. The Hudson step-downs have a beautiful look and dare I say, I love my 50 grill (I know its not the most popular). I have built a 42 Ford P/U and a 38 Dodge 5 window coupe, both with only the body original. I don't apologize for my preference. My plans for this car included a Fatmans Mustang II subframe and hub-to-hub conversion (which is sitting in my garage) and a late model Corvette LT1 w/ 4L60e.But gentlemen, I am not without some heart. My dilemma is that I understand that this is a very nice car with alot of potential. But finding another 2 door Hudson coupe (49-52) with an excellent interior and good body I think will be almost impossible for the money I have in the car right now.
So now you see where I'm at. Some will say "save the car at all costs" while others will say "hotrod it".
Just trying to illicit some thoughts.................
Jay
As some may know I recently purchased the 50 Pacemaker from MA. I bought it (sight unseen) because it appeared to have a good body and interior. It didn't run.
It arrived this Saturday morning unscathed from the long trip and I got my first look at it. It is a beautiful machine. On first look it does seem to have some minor rust in some spots on the body below the lower trim piece on both sides. Poking it doesn't send the screwdriver through the panel thank goodness. It is undercoated throughout the underside and all inside the trunk, but it doesn't appear to be a recent job either. The person I bought it from said it had a head gasket leak and when he tried to replace it, he broke off a few head bolts! Hence, the non-running. It is equiped with the drive-master option. It also has matching numbers. Someone has added an aftermarket a/c unit and radio as well as a 12 volt battery to run these. Otherwise it appears that everything else is still set to run off the 6 volt. It has been painted once; now black w/ white top, prior "revue red" (the firewall still shows this original color).
I have the original sales order and service policy when it was purchased on 8 April 1950 by a Mr. John Barringer from Kalmbach Motor Sales in Toledo, OH. I have one polaroid of the car as originally painted. I have other pics when the car had been painted as it is now, with one showing a trophy which may have been won at a car show. The car has been sitting garaged for the last 10 years in MA. I believe it was once owned by folks in HET.
Back to the DILEMMA!!!!
I was born a hotrodder. I bought my first car when I was 13, a 53 Chevy 210 Wagon w/ a 283 and 3 on the floor. I owned 3 cars before I had a drivers license! But my dream has always been to build a "lead sled" of my own. The Hudson step-downs have a beautiful look and dare I say, I love my 50 grill (I know its not the most popular). I have built a 42 Ford P/U and a 38 Dodge 5 window coupe, both with only the body original. I don't apologize for my preference. My plans for this car included a Fatmans Mustang II subframe and hub-to-hub conversion (which is sitting in my garage) and a late model Corvette LT1 w/ 4L60e.But gentlemen, I am not without some heart. My dilemma is that I understand that this is a very nice car with alot of potential. But finding another 2 door Hudson coupe (49-52) with an excellent interior and good body I think will be almost impossible for the money I have in the car right now.
So now you see where I'm at. Some will say "save the car at all costs" while others will say "hotrod it".
Just trying to illicit some thoughts.................
Jay
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Comments
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well here goes another unpopular opinion. RODD IT. Its your car your money. I have si hudsons all original. One of those is a very original convertible that I would never rod. In progress is a 50 commadore conv. with 350 /350 4 wheel disc. and future project will be a modified 52 hollywood. have fun with your new car what ever you decide to do0
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This is an interesting dilemma. Let me just share with you a little story. About 5yrs ago I bought my first collector car, a 51 chevy 3100 pu. I brought it back to original but I really didn't enjoy driving it. Four years ago My next collector a 67 427 ss impala convt. Fun to drive and very fast. About 2 yrs ago I tried to find a Hudson for my dad who had many and found a 54 hornet sedan. To his surprize I had it delivered right to his front door. The car needed some work and he wouldn't drive it. I think since it wasn't as perfect like the last 54 club coupe he owned. So I showed up a week after it was delivered and after some quick back yard mechanics we got it to run half way decent. STill My Dad wouldn't drive. So I said Get in I'll drive.
Having grown up in the 60's I was still to young to drive my dad's 54 and then he got rid of it in 74. Albiet I got my licience in 77.
I have to tell you that when I drove this 54 Hornet Sedan for the first time I was blown away. This thing handles as good as my old 94 BMW. I couldn't believe it. You got to be kidding me. Then jumping on the gas and having the kick down do it's job ......forget it. AS far as I'm concerned these cars were so far ahead of there time it was mind boggling.
Now I know you bought a 50 Pacemaker but how about tweeking what you have . Drive it get to know it . I'll bet that you will fall in luv..... There is nothing and I mean nothing like a Hudson ....................................0 -
IMHO- Seems a shame to lose another piece of history with a complete and stock Hudson. I'd find one that was a better candidate to hot rod.... Niels0
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Hi Jay!
Jay and I have had several off-forum conversations by email about this jewel of a project and he shared several pictures with me that indeed validates what Jay has said about the state of the car.
If any of you have seen the website or posts on my 49 Commodore you know I am not a 'purist' by any means - but IMHO this one at least deserves consideration for a driveable restoration, or full restoration based on the condition of the car, the documented history Jay got with the car and the rareness of the 2dr.
So I'll pose this question - "Is there someone else out there willing to give Jay a fair price that would want to restore this vehicle?" and "Would Jay even give it up?":)
OR-
Is there someone close by Jay that could help him get her running again for a reasonable price? Because ultimately to rebuild the drivetrain (if needed) could possibly run equal to the amount of going through the customizations Jay outlined in the post he would like to do to the Hudson.
Heres a big @ss composite of some of the pics Jay sent me - Jay I hope you don't mind me putting my ideas and your pics out here - I just thought it would help folks get and idea of the condition...
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But again, who will pay me enough money for my car to get another coupe in the same shape? I doubt there is very many takers. Where can I find another coupe w/ excellent interior and good paint (maybe some minor rust and I don't need any motor or trans) and good tires for $7,000?0
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you got a steel......0
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I guess you guys are way ahead of my replys....by the time I finish a reply you all have already addressed it! :-)
Jay0 -
literally and figuratively0
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I'd buy it off you if I had the dough but you're right finding a good coupe cadidate seems hard.....then again, sometimes in the HET club people say "Oh you don't see those come up for sale anymore" and then out of left field 5 of em are for sale in the classifieds. As far as rod or restro I think it also kinda depends what your goals are as far as driving it?????? Are you running around town? Cross country? Daily driver? If you're not at the drag stripp when are you gonna use the speed? I'm not against rods but to me seeing a Hudson modified with other Hudson equipment or period aftermarket speed equipment is much more interesting than a V8 which everyone and their grandma has at a show.0
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My goals driving...well, low and fast! There is some really good highway between Phoenix and L.A. (well the AZ/CA border at least) with not too many DPS officers. I once cruised at 105 for 100 miles straight on an empty highway (I am a safe driver though) in a Dodge Stratus! I want a daily driver, cross country, and wherever I want to go. Thats one reason I like the updated motor and trans idea. Easy to get parts and very reliable (if you start with the right set-up).0
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Is there anyone in the Phoenix metro area who knows anything about getting one of these running? I am handy with a wrench, but honestly know very little about flat heads or the "drive master" system.0
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Too nice of a car to street rod! I hope you leave it, and enjoy it as a Hudson.
I agree with Niels, there are better candidates out there to rod.
Gene.0 -
The beauty of this car is in it's entirety...... Why not put in a different cam and set up a twin H carb setup. I think you'll be more than happy with the performance.....0
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I agree with those who suggest (in so many words), 'give it a run around the block before you decide what to do.' It really looks in unusually good condition. If you're thinking of dropping a different engine in without cutting it up, that's one thing. But if you're going radical and stripping it down to a shell before building it back up again...well, you might better get a shell, and start there.
Since it sounds like you got a bargain, you could sell this car and make a profit 'as-is'. Then take your money, buy a 'shell Hudson' (for minimal cost) and use the rest to devote to your modifications. Just a suggestion.
You ask if there is someone in the Phoenix area who's knowledgeable about Hudsons. Have you tried Al Saffrahn, he's in the roster. And not that far away, I think. He'd at least have some idea of who is competent, in your area.0 -
It doesn't sound like it would be much trouble to get it running as it is. I've said in the past "it's your car, do what you want with it" and stand by that...BUT, since it is such a complete and nice car as it sits, get it running first and drive it, then see where you want to go with the car. As you work on this one, you'll likely come up with a better candidate, i.e. complete car minus drivetrain, somewhere that'll make a superb modern cruiser.
Points to ponder.0 -
Yer car, yer money and yer decision...There were two beautifull Step Downs in Reno, for the most part the exterior and interiors were ORIGINAL....One of them was running a Corvette Engine in it the Other A Mustang Engine.
The fella with the Stepdown/Corvette was asking $42,000 for his car thus telling me that he had at least that much probably more.....It didn't get any attention and needless to say he drove it home.
You can sink tons of money into RODDING a Stepdown and unless you plan on keeping it for ever you will just be throwing yer money into an open pit....Or for much less money you can Restore yer Car to Original condition drive the heck out of it and at any time you decide sell it and re-coup all of yer investment...
If yah want to spend 40-50K on a ROD buy a Chebby...If you want to spend under 20 and have a great car stick with a Hudson0 -
There is a Hudson guy there in the Phoenix area... Al Safron, he is a HET member. Don't have his contact info handy. I'm sure someone on the forum can provide it. Regards, Niels
P.S.- Keep it Hudson...it is too nice to mess with! I've got a $1,000 52 Hudson Hornet coupe going on e-bay tomorrow. It is a big project and will be alot of work but money should be right depending on the bidding!0 -
As many here have said, it's your car. However, I agree that you should get her running and see the quality driveability of a Hudson in it's original state. Contact Al Saffrahn and he'll help you. Al's one of the best on Hudsons. He lives in Maricopa, AZ. Hope this helps.
Neils has a good project coupe for sale, ideal for rodding if that's your cup of tea. I've been there, done that and whether a car would be rodded or orginial depends on what I've got to start with. You've got a great car to go back original. My two cents.0 -
jsrail wrote:My goals driving...well, low and fast! There is some really good highway between Phoenix and L.A. (well the AZ/CA border at least) with not too many DPS officers. I once cruised at 105 for 100 miles straight on an empty highway (I am a safe driver though) in a Dodge Stratus! I want a daily driver, cross country, and wherever I want to go. Thats one reason I like the updated motor and trans idea. Easy to get parts and very reliable (if you start with the right set-up).
Jay - don't forget if you swap out the wiring/steering/suspension/brakes/sub-frame/motor/trans - you will still need to put a later model rear axle and modified drive-line otherwise those 105mph cruises will come to a grinding halt!
Try to get her running "on the cheap" before taking drastic measures - you haven't mentioned if the motor turns over by hand (a good thing) and is the wiring intact? My 49 engine was seized and the 6V wiring was brittle and mostly missing - if it had been anything even close to yours I would have tried to get it running first - as it was I still took a couple of months of probing and research before I decided to resto-rod mine.
I think folks advice to try to get it running and drive it first is spot on - Someone gave me that same advice when I bought my first house. Live in it for 6 months to a year to get a feel for it before planning or starting renovations. I did do that and I easily saved myself 50 grand in crazy things I was thinking of doing when I first moved in - project cars are the same way.
I think the fact the you are even questioning rodding this nice stepdown is an indication that you realize after getting the car it just may be too nice to rod!
Either Way - I'll support you in your decision the more Hudsons on the road of any flavor is good for us all!0 -
Being a owner of a 50 Pacemaker coupe I can fully understand your feelings about rodding the car. I took the approach of building a KILLER 308 Hornet engine with parts from Clifford, Dany Spring and Randy Maas while it has a modern GM 350 turbo transmission and a Ford 8.8" Mustang-Thunderbird rearend.
I wanted my Hudson to stand out and that will NEVER HAPPEN with a Chevy V8 in it. Anybody, and I really mean ANYBODY can build a Hot Rod with a Chevy small block V8 engine. Christ man, you can practically walk into WallMart and get everything to build a Chevy V8!
The way I look at is that Hot Rods with Chevy V8 engine do not show creativity or imagination at all, but rather they show just how America has lost its choices in not only drivetrains for project but choices in Independent Auto Makers as well.
PaceRacer50
(It's Alive and terrorizing the neighborhood!)0 -
First of all, unbolt that drivemaster and store it in the garage where you can find it if you ever want it. It's a 'plumbers nitemare' and you don't need that right now.
Get a Hudson Shop Service Manual from the club store.
Take the motor out, and take it apart and clean and check everything. My experience is, that most of the parts can be re-used after clean-up. For a gasket set and any parts you need, go to
http://www.hudsonmotorcarco.com/
I've re-furbished these things for a couple hundred bucks and drive em several times a week.
It's your car, but if ya put a Chivvy motor in there, forget people at a show being interested in your Hudson. If ya keep the Hudson motor, you'll be so busy talking with people you can't sit down.0 -
Right on Pace racer.... That's what I'm talking about.....0
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That goes back to what I've said about modified Hudsons, or any other non-Chevy rod. Small block Chevy engines embody the "me-too"-ism of many rodders. No matter what you do on a 350 Chevy engine, it's still just another 350 Chevy engine and another no-imagination rod. Hopping up a Hudson with period and factory pieces would be my first choice, if your car were in my shop. Perhaps a front disc swap, a late-model Ford rear axle and the rear discs from the same would add to the drivability and enjoyment factor of your car, without visually distracting from the car itself. If a modern overdrive is desired, a 700R4 GM non-electronic OD can be bolted to the Hudson Sixes (don't remember who was making the parts, though!) without a bunch of drama and enhanced parts availability.
In the end, it is your car, and you are putting another Hudson on the road. Consider what we've all said, and enjoy you new car! Welcome aboard!0 -
PaceRacer50 wrote:...ANYBODY can build a Hot Rod with a Chevy small block V8 engine. Christ man, you can practically walk into WallMart and get everything to build a Chevy V8!...
Yeah I agree with that assertion GM 3-fities are used because they fit well and are cheap to build - in fact most brandx rods have GM motors because they fit better than 351 Ford motors in the older cars.
But building a Big Block aint cheap and how many people can stuff a Big Block 454 into a Hudson retaining the original Hudson suspension-steering- and firewall without cutting it all to pieces.... Only 1 in existence that I know of ME and my 49! :cool:
Hey - Jay, you got that thing running yet? :eek:0 -
Wow!! Lots of comments, thats good. Dan, its not running yet.....I got head bolts the previous owner broke off in the block! They'll have to be drilled and retapped if the matching number engine is to be saved. Don't know how possible thats going to be given its age. I can have only one toy, so I've some thinking to do.....but I've got to say guys, the late LT1 's and LS1's are sweet motors with pretty good mileage to boot! And I've never cared much if people at shows look at my car or not, true car nuts appreciate everyone's taste, even if its not their own. And I've never been interested in trophys. I'm just an independent @ss! :-) But really thanks all for your comments, I truly mean that. I'll try to keep you all abreast of my progress.
Jay "The Rail"0 -
jsrail wrote:Wow!! Lots of comments, thats good. Dan, its not running yet.....I got head bolts the previous owner broke off in the block! They'll have to be drilled and retapped if the matching number engine is to be saved. Don't know how possible thats going to be given its age. I can have only one toy, so I've some thinking to do.....but I've got to say guys, the late LT1 's and LS1's are sweet motors with pretty good mileage to boot! And I've never cared much if people at shows look at my car or not, true car nuts appreciate everyone's taste, even if its not their own. And I've never been interested in trophys. I'm just an independent @ss! :-) But really thanks all for your comments, I truly mean that. I'll try to keep you all abreast of my progress.
Jay "The Rail"
Maybe someone else has a running motor at a reasonable price? Then you can crate the original up until you have more time-money, or just keep it around in case you sell the car - same with the vacumatic part of the drive-master (don't you just love it... DRIVE-MASTER) - those original parts can help immensely with the value...
I still can't emphasize how cool and rare it is to get a car with some of the original documentation showing options and then the other pics and history of the car (I would try to have the previous owners write you a letter or "story" about the cars history - that would be nice to have as well...)
I've been looking into the history of my car - haven't gotten too far. All I found is a towing receipt and a early 1960's postcard from the VA both with the original owners name. I did get a copy of the title that has the same plate numbers as the South Dakota plates in the original ebay listing - sadly the guy I bought it from (not the original owners) transferred the title in CA so when I got it up to WA the original plates were gone
. He has since gone through a divorce and can't recall where the plates ended up. If anyone sees a 1949 South Dakota plate 49 JV49 Let me know! 
The only reason I want to try and sleuth some history for the car is it lived in Sturgis, South Dakota most of its life. If anyone is not familiar with Sturgis - they have a little motorcyle festival every year that draws 1/2 million people - maybe there are some old memories of my car floating around out there still...
Anyway - I think you get my point - History is a cool thing to have and not to be easily discounted...0 -
Dan
I never made it to Strugis, but my last bike was a 1941 FL (knucklehead-last prewar civilian production year). Cruised alot in So. Cali! But sold it to put up the down payment on my first house.....gotta have priorities.
Your big block is cool, but I want a daily driver with good mileage. My 88 rover is for off-road (and daily driving while the Hud is being built). I'm still a chevy engine guy, thats just the way it is. :-)
Personally, my gut feeling right now is to sell the car and buy another without so much original paperwork. But I'm not going to buy some POS just so this car doesn't get cut. I want what I have less a motor/trans for the same money. Heck, I'ld be willing to trade if the deal was fair. But I won't take someone's rust bucket either. But, I haven't seen anyone make me an offer.
Anyway, I'm still thinking on it. Thanks for everyone's comments....even the harsh ones! geez guys!
Jay0 -
Well, I'm not really a purist either, and it's definitely his prerogative to do whatever he likes with his car, but that car is NICE. I would not radically alter that car if it were mine ... a hotted-up 308, however, would be perfectly OK with me. Just my .02.0
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One suggestion, Jay. If you want to 'test the waters' to see if anyone's willing to pony up some real money for that car, consider running an ad in the WTN. This forum gets maybe 100, 200 people following it, but he WTN has 3500 readers, all of them Hudson nuts. Won't cost you a dime as a Club member, and you might hit the jackpot, who knows?0
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Jon
I just sent my membership in a few days ago, so I don't have a membership number yet, but I'll give that a whirl when I get it.
Thanks0
This discussion has been closed.
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