A Classic Dilemma
Comments
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Frank, why should a complete, original, and straight car be butchered for a rod??? A car is only original once! To take a car with nothing wrong with it and rod it is just not right! It's better for everyone if a shell is made into a rod, rather than a complete car. You're going to cut up and alter the original car in 95% of the jobs, anyway, why would you do that??? Again, the car is yours, do what you will, I'll say it again. But why destroy an original car when you don't care about originality??? All cars do not have to end up as rods to be put back on the road. It just makes more sense, in the historic ssense and in the economic sense, to start with a shell if you're doing a rod. Like when a guy takes a steel Model A and builds a rod from a complete, running, original car - what's the point, other than destroying an original???0
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in the eyes of the beholder patrick so when you look at a rodded hudson you see butchered does it make you ill or what. butchered? destroyed? cut up, is that like modify? thats what i was talking about once before about hudson guys getting there cars out to shows nothing in common. i guess when i was at the back to the fifties show with 10,000 cars i was standing in the middle of a bunch of butchered and destroyed cars. wow i respect originality just doesn't bother me to change it. like back in 48 when hudson changed the world with the stepdown they weren't affraid to change a car i'm just changing it a little more.0
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Patrick, I respectfully have to disagree on the money thing. To do a ground up I'ld have to pay a metal fab guy and painter alot of money to get a rusted body in the shape mines in. Certainly alot more than the $5K I paid for the car. And that is not my area so a good job would have to be done by a professional. I can do the mechanical end for sure, but body, paint and interior are things that I cannot do. Where could I get all that work done for $5K? Not in my town. Yes, I can get the sub-frame installed by a friend of mine, but he is no body man. I trade tax work for his help, but it would a number of years of tax returns to trade for some hard core body and frame repairs. If I thought mine was the only Pacemaker left, it might be different. Originality is in the eye of the beholder anyway. Does someone want to give me $15K for my car? I seriously doubt it (and I wouldn't), and its probably not worth that on the open market anyway. In talking to various shops around town here thats roughly what it would cost for a good job. In all my looking around the web, it appears to me that there are alot more original Hudsons out there then there are rodded ones. So, no one is saying all Hudsons must be rodded to get on the road. I don't think the Hudson story will go down in vain if mine is rodded.
Jay0 -
A rod probably wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't for two things. First, a rod almost always ends up altering a car to the point where a restoration of the same car by a future owner is nearly impossible, both financially and feasibly. Second, as I've said before, the engine of choice is far too often a small block Chevrolet. If I walk up to a non-Chevy rod at a show or a cruise and see a SBC under the hood, I'll keep on walking, no matter how slick the car is otherwise. If a Mopar has a HEMI or a SBM in it, I'll look, for sure! Or a Ford coupe with a 427 or a 302, I'm there. Or an orphan with anything BUT a SBC in it, again, I'm going to look and appreciate it. I'm NOT against street rods, far from it!!! I just do NOT like it when someone takes a clean, original car (especially a rare or unique one) and street rods it, and uses a SBC as the engine of choice. And, don't give me the "they're cheaper to build" nonsense, not when a person is spending anywhere from $25K to $250K and more to build a car!!! When you spend that kind of money, why be a "me-too!" with a SBC???
Perfect example - Last year at the NSRA SW Street Rod Nats in OKC, there was a superb 1949 Cadillac convertible, black with tan leather and top, and he showed pics of what he started with...it was a nice original car that had sat for nearly 30 years in a garage. BUT, he decided to rod it. OK, that's fine. It drew a lot of attention, despite it wasn't offically a part of the event. Did he rebuild the cars' original V-8 and do a period performance rebuild...no, he had a 350 in it. The guy spent over $100K to do this car. Think he could've used a 472 or 500 Caddy engine, or even a Northstar V-8? That would've made it a special car. But the 350 made it just another me-too hack job, and I walked away from that one, yet another disappointing car.
That's my point.0 -
As most people know, I am a rarity - an older club member who happens to believe "You pays your money - do what you want with the car!!" However, in this case, after looking over the pictures, this one I would, if I had it, would keep original.
If you find a basket case that needs total resto, that's one thing. But having a car as near original as this one, I truly don't believe it should rodded.
That's my view from over 30 years of messing with these things.
Hudsonly,
Alex B0 -
Sure a Hemi would be nice, but I want the later model for fuel efficiency and performance. The only ones I can find are around $5-6K! They haven't been out long enough to bring the price down.
The point is that I can have this car rodded complete for around $15K, including the price of the car and have it finished in around 3-4 months. I would have to spend twice that to build from a rust bucket and frankly (around $15K just for rust, body and upholstery, not even an engine/trans), my family cannot afford it and I don't feel I should have to wait years to finish by using a near scrap vehicle.
Some people hate chevy sb, some hate Fords, Mopar, etc. So be it. I saw all of that in the NSRA when I was a member. You can't change everyone's minds, nor would anyone want to......differences make the world go 'round!
Many of you talk about the rarity of this car. I don't see it in the numbers I can look up on the web. Most values are around $4-5K (mine doesn't even run). My Suburban low blue booked at $7K! So, if its so rare, people aren't paying much for them.
So, unless someone out there is willing to buy mine at $15K, it will get rodded. I have thought this thing thru so much, its giving me a headache! A rod is what I want for me and my son, and that is what I'll have. I appreciate everyone's comments and thoughts and I've learned to thicken my skin......lol :-) Its a good thing this is the internet, or else I'ld sleep with one eye open in fear of being pummelled with baseball bats! lol :-)
But that is were its at. A sincere thanks to everyone.
Jay0 -
P.S. It seems its Tom-WA's b-day today. Happy Birthday!
Jay0 -
Hi Jay!
I don't know tons about Hudsons (still learning and willing to admit it!) But I'd bet you a 100.00 bucks that if your 50 Pacemaker in its current condition and with a stock drivetrain in running condition could and would be worth 8-12k and potentially as high as 15k+ if the paint was re-done in stock colors.
Maybe your 50 Pacemaker is not rare as in some lower production models like the 50 Super 8 (1704) - the "rare-ness" of your car is AGAIN having original-verifiable documentation and some awareness of the history the car itself.
Seriously though - wouldn't you be able to get this thing running with a transplanted Hudson 6 and trans for a couple thousand 2-3k - not an additional 10k+ to rod it? You would still only have - tops - 7-8k into it - drive it next summer then sell it to finance another one?
I really wish for the cars sake that it was in running condition now - because if it was I doubt we would be having this conversation and you would already be out driving it!
Of course I know you will have fun going either direction with the car and I'm looking forward to seeing it when my 49 is out on tour next summer - hopefully I can drop by and see your rodding-progress or better yet go out on a road trip with your just re-done stock Pacemaker!
Stock Pacemaker Time to get Running 3-6 months - $2-3k
Street Rodded Pacemaker Time to get Running 12-18 months - $10-15k
Just my guestimates! But of course money and time can either shorten or lengthen a project!
One last question what is the serial number on the car? - mid 1950 Hudson offered a Pacemaker Deluxe Series 50A model and that one had lower production numbers than the early year 500 models...
50A Series Model Prodcuction 22k+ vs. 500 Series Model Production 39k
Of course that is not an internal break down of the total numbers of the Pacemaker Line (2dr, 4dr and Convert) I haven't been able to find a production breakdown that detailed...
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Dan0 -
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I'm going to agree with Dan (nice to know your name, I can quit calling you your dog's name now).
It is monumentally cheaper to get your car running first. And faster.
I'm sure the broken off head bolts can be taken out. I'll give you a pointer on getting them out.
Get or borrow a set of screw extractors. They don't have to be "top grade". Take a file and lightly file off the portion, if there is any, that sticks above the deck, then drill a hole in the bolt that is the recommended size for the extractor. Don't try to get an extractor that is too big, you actually want quite a bit of meat left and this also helps to give you some extra clearance - because its tough to get the extractor hole dead center. Snap-On makes an extractor set with a drill guide, but they are pricey.
Here is the part that gets the bolt out. Heat the deck around the broken bolt with a propane torch. Really hot. Keep a small spray bottle handy and when you think you've got the area around the bolt hot enough, spray cold water down the center of the hole you drilled for the extractor. Lightly tap the block around the bolt. Reapeat this three times, and take your time. On the fourth cycle install the extractor after you've sprayed the water down the center of the hole - and give it a try. If it seems it won't budge, tap the block around the extractor. If it doesn't want to come out - give it another heat cycle. It also helps to use 3/8" air ratchet on the extractor instead of a wrench or T handle. The "hammering" effect of the ratchet works really well on loosening the broken bolt without twisting off the extractor. Fiddle around in your socket set until you find a 12pt socket the square head of the extractor fits snugly in.
What this does is heat cycle the broken bolt. By spraying the water through the center of the bolt, you shock it much more than the block. The 3 cycles before trying to remove it, and the tapping, give the rust/crud/whatever time to "detach" from the threads. The other reason for the heat cycling is to cool the bolt much more relative to the block, so theoreticly the block threads are "bigger" than the bolt which has been rapidly cooled.
This method works, but you have to be patient.
Cost - the cost of propane bottles as bought at Wal-Mart. I'm talking cheapo propane torch and not oxy-acetelyene. The propane torch will keep you from gettng the block too hot and puddling the deck surface.
Head Gasket - $100.00
Head studs - whatever Grade 8 7/16" bolts cost at the Ace Hardware.
Time - whatever you value your time at?
Result - you are on the road in your Hudson.
Then, see where you go from there.
I really don't expect it to change your mind about everything you want to change about it. However, it may help you to make better decisions about what to change to suit your fancy. Rodding a Hudson isn't like rodding a Model T, the stepdown has alot more to offer and alot more innovation that may surprize you than most rodding fodder.
Mark0 -
Its a 500 model. Serial number 50058469. Matching engine number. Rodding it will only take 2-4 months and well within my budget. I don't understand where you get 12-18 months, its just a matter of installation fab and parts purchases. Nothing major on the body needs to be done right away. I know exactly what needs to be done and about how long it will take. My only time issue is how much time I can spend away from the office working on it, but that would be the case in any senario. I am not interested in a ground up hot rod, it takes too long. When this one is finished, maybe I will look for a car I can spend a longer time with, I don't know. Honestly, it probably will not be an original either. I want something I can run soon (with common easy to find updated replacement parts) with my family and this car fits perfectly.
And to be honest, if it was worth so much, people would be knocking down my door to buy it! I doubt I'ld even have to advertise it, word would spread. I don't know for sure all the vehicle's history, maybe it had major body/frame work done years ago, I don't know. All-in-all, I don't see the high value. I'm a street rodder and that probably upsets many people, but that is life. I won't apologize for that. I'm not into going to shows with nothing but originals, thats not my gig (though its certainly fun for those folks and I respect that) and I don't care about winning anything either. I don't care if people pass by my car because its rodded. Believe me, there will be lots of people stopping to check it out (probably not from this forum), even in a rodded condition. I guess my HET club membership is about to get denied! lol :-) I like the local car meets where everyone just shows up to have a good time at the drive up burger joint and there is everything from resto's to hot rods. Kind of like Mel's Drive-In on Ventura Blvd. (SoCal), though we have similar meets out here (no Mel's though :-(). I am a big fan of the 50's hot rod scene, though it was actually my father's time, but I can still like it!
I wish you good luck on your project and I'll be watching. I hope someday our Huds will meet. Even though your not in agreement with my plans for this car, you have respected my right to do it, and I greatly appreciate that.
Jay0 -
Dan, if someone wants to give me another 2 door coupe (49-52), titled in its original year, with all pieces, body/frame work done in primer (paint not necessary), all chrome pieces there and in decent shape, redone interior with original dash and instruments (in good shape), no motor and trans, I'ld consider it. But I won't accept one that needs all that work since I already have one mostly done.
Jay0 -
Hi Jay
My 12-18 months guestimate is only due to my car building experiences and what can typically happen when or if you farm work out - like installing the fat fab sub-frame. when parts or the car go out of your hands its a cr@p-shoot most of the time as to when or if you get it back!
But if you think the street rodding swap and fit can be done in 2-4 months COOL! Means you'll most likely be on the road before me!
BTW LOL At Myself - I thought my 49 would be running this summer - not complete - but running. I currently figure I missed that estimate by at least 6-9 months and this was mostly to do with my original assesment of the car and then the reality of it once I tore into it!
It's still fun to throw a "log on the fire" though and get people's opinions on what they think. There are obviously a lot of knowledgable people on the forum with differing backgrounds and experiences - makes for fun reading!
If you hadn't noticed your post has crawled up to #4 all time on the Hudson Forum for hits!
Dan0 -
#4! Cool!!! Actually, Dan, the subframe comes complete with everything to bolt up the radiator/fender supports, etc. Takes about 1-2 days to install, mostly to just check and recheck measurements to make sure everything is where it should be. My metal fab guy has already looked at it and says no problem (he's great w/ fab...just not a body man) and thats it all about prep. Engine/trans mounts are nothing to do, and drivelines are easy. A new rearend may take some time, but not much if I order a Currie (they build pretty fast I hear). Steering....not a big thing either.
I understand your estimate, yours needs much work and is why I don't want a project like that right now, too much with the wife and kid to do. :-)
Jay0 -
Just my 2 cents but the Lincoln Versailles rear end is same width as the Hudson and is strong enough to take loads of power. Thats what the hot rodders from my neck of the woods use on the older cars with narrow rears.0
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Wow! Thanks Jim. Thats some good info. Will that have the same 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern? I imagine it would.
Jay0 -
the Lincoln rear has the same pattern as the Hudson, and it's a super piece.0
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Thanks Pat, guess its time for me to look for one!
Jay0 -
Jimalberta wrote:Just my 2 cents but the Lincoln Versailles rear end is same width as the Hudson and is strong enough to take loads of power. Thats what the hot rodders from my neck of the woods use on the older cars with narrow rears.
What model year(s) are they using the rear ends from the Lincoln Versailles?0 -
Just found this on the net. Looks like maybe a 2nd alternative as well.
http://www.stuart.iit.edu/students/2112/restoration/restoration.htm
Jay0 -
Dan, the Lincoln Versailles was available from 1977 to 1980. Basically it was a pumped up Ford Grenada. Bolt pattern's the same as Hudson and you get disc brakes to boot!
The Versailles used a hydroboost type of master cylinder that you don't want to use, so make sure you use an adjustable porportioning valve with your choice of master cylinder.
The nice thing for my last project was that it was a bolt in for my 1955 Ford Sedan Delivery. I put the Grenada spindles and discs on the front and it made a really sweet swap. The Versailles rear end will handle most street engines without any problem.0 -
Here are some measurements that might help.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/172/article/1948_through_1960_Ford_F1_and_F100_Rear_Axle_differential_Swaps.html
Its for a Ford truck, but lists some various model widths for Ford 9"ers.
Jay0 -
The narrowest 9" Ford axle assembly was in the 1957-1959 Station Wagons and Rancheros. It used to be a great swap for the 1964-68 Mustangs as it was a bolt in fit. The next narrowest was one used for the 1967-69 Fairlane, Mustang, Torino, and Cougars with the big block FE engine in them.0
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Jay, just my 2 cents worth. It's your car, your project. My next long term rod project will be a 1951 Hornet sedan with a Jag V12 and 700R4 trans. I'll be keeping the Hudson suspension as it really works well in the stock form. I ran a 1953 Wasp Brougham with a 460 Ford, narrowed 9" ladder bar rear axle, tubbed and subframed for nostalgia drags back in the 80's and early 90's. The car was a blast. Good luck!!0
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Awesome! a jag v12......sweet. I'm going for the mileage performance thing. I want to be able to drive across country with the family without worrying about parts availability. Thats why I think I'm going with a late vette LT1/4L60e combo. The LS1's are too pricey just yet, unless I happen to get lucky. There's a neighbor of mine here who says he knows someone who can get me a good deal on a low miler (he supplies all the motors for his resto's. Mine won't be a drag car, but should be able to light up the tires now and then. I'm going for the "long and low" look.
What was your time in that 460? I love the narrowed and tubbed idea, not practical though for mine.
What is the actual measurement on the Hud rear end drum face to drum face (since it doesn't have a flanged axle)? I don't have mine on jackstands yet to pull the wheels off.
Jay0 -
Sorry Jay, I don't have the measurement at hand for the rear axle. The Wasp would regularly run in the 12s with a basically stock 460. We didn't want to go much faster as it would have required a full roll cage which we really didn't want to install.
The V12 Jag should still get pretty good mileage, stock form was at 15mpg or so. I'm adding custom fuel injection and should get about 20mpg when done. I'm going the Versailles rear axle and Grenada front discs. I've still got both sitting in Reno so no expense out. I'll probably use one of those street rod power boosted master cylinders that mount under the floorboard so I can still use the original Hudson pedals. Again, this project will be a couple of years in the making but it will be worth it.
My "regular" Hudson is a 1954 Hornet Special sedan with a fully rebuilt 308, hydro, headers with dual exhaust all the way out the back. Really sounds neat. I got it off of EBay for $4600 and the owner had receipts for $10K with the entire drivetrain, axles, brakes rebuilt and fresh Perellis mounted on powder coated wheels. She's got original black paint that is buffed through in a couple of places and checked here and there but she's a driver and so that won't be done for quite a while. Enjoy your Hudson in whatever form you make it.
Larry0 -
Jay - Not as complete as yours but the pictures look good and this is a runner starting a decent 3500.00 price!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Hudson-Pacemaker-1951-Hudson-Pacemaker_W0QQitemZ4583648668QQcategoryZ6472QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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I just read thru all of this....
While I appreciate a good job done on a rod, I also think that just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should....
Here's my take on it...
you can do what you want with the car, but honestly, the availability of parts, and shape this car is in, probably warrants restoration. I would think that a 308 with twin H would be a fair compromise. I would hate to see this thing subframmed, or cut, what a shame. As far as reliability, I think that you could have a modernized 308 built for this, with twin h, and even have air and PS and PB put on, enjoy the car, and quite honestly, maintain a lot of respect from other hudson members.
Anyone can subframe a car and put a modern driveline in it. Really it seems the easy way out. For a car that really requires this little work, I would get this running, and see how you really like it. Take the drivemaster off, fix the head gasket, get it running.
My biggest question is...
what's really wrong with using a hudson driveline?
Is it that you want to drive it fast?
well, that's not a great idea with a little one...
Also, you stated that you want to take this on trips...
for the reliability...
At the Hudson National meets, there are people there that drive them across country...
with Hudson driveline...
and no problems...
It sounds like your mind is already made up, to rod this.
Or for some reason reading this 10 pages of posts, it seemed that perhaps the idea of reselling this for a profit was a thought. (15,000 is a bit high.. for a non-running car)
Curious as to why you even bought a hudson in the first place?
maybe another make of car, perhaps a hmmmm... 49-51 merc might have been a better choice. they came with 350's.....
I know it was a terrific deal.
Anyway,
Good luck if rodding is the direction you decide.0 -
Howdy
Well, my deal was a no-brainer. Bought a hulled-out '50 Pacemaker tudor that idiots had put a 460 Ford motor and Chrysler rear-end and front suspension under. I pulled the motor & trans. The rear end seems mounted Ok, but the tires are hell to get off. Then had to take the brake drums off to get 'em back on to roll around. Is the mid 70's mopar rear end too wide for the Hudson? I really wish they had left the rolling gear alone. Body is solid but hulled out.
I have toyed with the idea of putting a 90 Eldorado complete front clip on it and make her a front-wheel drive. What are y'alls opinions on this? And, there is no shot at restoring this one. But, rest assured, I do have a '53 Twin H Hornet fordor that I do plan to keep all Hudson
Billy0 -
Billy Clanton wrote:Howdy
Well, my deal was a no-brainer. Bought a hulled-out '50 Pacemaker tudor that idiots had put a 460 Ford motor and Chrysler rear-end and front suspension under. I pulled the motor & trans. The rear end seems mounted Ok, but the tires are hell to get off. Then had to take the brake drums off to get 'em back on to roll around. Is the mid 70's mopar rear end too wide for the Hudson? I really wish they had left the rolling gear alone. Body is solid but hulled out.
I have toyed with the idea of putting a 90 Eldorado complete front clip on it and make her a front-wheel drive. What are y'alls opinions on this? And, there is no shot at restoring this one. But, rest assured, I do have a '53 Twin H Hornet fordor that I do plan to keep all Hudson
Billy
I think with a front wheel drive and transaxle the front end of the car would be too heavy and the poor weight distribution would probably make it dive or push excessively in the corners.0
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