My Twin-H Saga (with pics!)
iceblade10
Member
Hello Everyone,
I've decided to start a thread to document my Twin-H conversion. Maybe people will find it interesting, or helpful if others want to do it in the future.
I originally planned to keep my 1954 Hornet Coupe as original as possible (within reason), and that meant keeping the single-carb setup, which frankly, runs great. It was hesitating earlier in the year, but a new accelerator pump fixed that right up.
I like to go to local car shows on the weekends when I can. Most people don't even know what a Hudson is, and I'm usually the only one there, even when there are 700 other cars. There is also a select minority that knows exactly what a Hudson though, and they become very excited to see one "in the flesh." Usually, the first question I get asked is, "is this a Twin-H?!?" And of course my answer has always been, "no..." You could see obvious disappointment in some people's eyes... I finally starting thinking to myself, "wouldn't it be nice to be able to say yes to all these people...?" Then, I met a guy at the last car show of the year who also owned a Hornet (although he didn't bring it to the show), and he was telling me about how his brother in law found a Twin-H setup in a junkyard, which he installed on his car. That got me thinking, if he could do it, why can't I?
The only problem is, where to find a Twin-H setup? I think most have been picked from junkyards long ago. And even if they weren't, I'm sure years of exposure to the elements would not have been kind to them. eBay had miscellaneous components for sale, of varying condition, but all for extortionist prices. No, that wouldn't do... I needed to find someone who stockpiled several sets, and was willing to let one go for a reasonable price. My first feelers were not fruitful, but finally, after posting on this forum, I got a lead from a regular poster (thanks Uncle Josh!) I called up the gentleman who allegedly had some Twin-H manifolds for sale, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that not only did he have the manifolds, he also had the carbs, air cleaners, AND linkage (AKA The Holy Grail). When he told me his price, I was once again pleasantly surprised, as the gentleman was not looking to make money, but rather just got back what he paid for it, 20 years ago. Hooray for inflation! :-)
In another stroke of fortune, the gentleman lived only about 2 hours away from me. This means I could simply drive up in my fuel-sipping hybrid, and save the shipping costs. Those manifolds are HEAVY - I can only imagine what shipping those hunks of metal would cost... The exchange went well. I was buying everything sight-unseen, as the gentleman does not have internet, so I took him at his word that the items were in good condition. He had previously mentioned that he is also trying to sell his '51 Hornet, so I offered to help him out by posting the car on the forums/Facebook groups for him, since he did not have internet or a computer. He was very grateful for that, as he seemed a bit overwhelmed with the prospect of figuring out how to sell it. He even offered to pay me a commission, but of course I refused. His health now prevents him from enjoying and maintaining the car, and his children have no interest in it. Anyway, I scanned the photos he provided to me, and posted them all the very same night. With any luck, his phone will soon be ringing off the hook with offers... :-)
The first picture shows my haul. It's not perfect, but overall, I'm VERY happy. Here are my concerns:
-The exhaust manifold has one of the studs snapped off a bit. Not sure where I would find another one. My dad said that one of his buddies (a gunsmith) can possible make a new one.
-The intake manifold has a hairline crack (see pic 2). I understand that a lot of people seem to use JB Weld to fix these cracks. It doesn't look bad at all, but I'm no expert. The other option is to try to find a guy to weld it properly.
-Both manifolds have a TON of carbon buildup. All you need to do is shake them, and it'll start pouring out. This of course will need to be cleaned out. I wonder if a professional sandblaster can help me?
-The air cleaners are not correct for a '54 - they are '55 I believe. However, with that being said, they are in nice condition - no dents like most you see, and only very minor surface rust. The paint and decals are pretty chipped and faded, but they are all still there, which is kind of cool. I could either restore them and use them anyway, since I like this style the best, try to trade them to someone for the correct style, or maybe just use them as-is, with the original paint and everything. We'll see.
-The carbs have supposedly been rebuild with Daytona kits, which is great. However, they just don't seem right to me. For starters, the levers on the one carb seem to have been reinstalled backwards in comparison to the other. Not sure if it's supposed to be that way, or if it was just done improperly? They've never been run on a car since rebuild (or probably 40 years before THAT) so it wouldn't have been an issue. But obviously that something that needs to be sorted out. Additionally, the carbs seem to have been spray-painted a gold color. I heard that these were originally off a '53 Hornet, so my guess is that someone wanted these to be gold to match to engine color. This is not ideal for me, as my '54 engine is red. I'd like to have just plain silver carbs. Repainting them silver seems like a pain... I wonder if there's a way I can simply scrub them with a solvent of some sort to remove the gold paint?
-The linkage is just a big unknown to me. It looks like the major piece is there, but I really have no idea of what other pieces I may need, or where to get them. I understand that some pieces are different depending on the transmission, etc. I really won't know until I start mocking things up, and comparing them to pics I see on the internet...
-My last concern is just trying to figure out all the other miscellaneous odds and ends that go along with installing this setup, specifically the plumbing. I have no idea how I'm going to plumb in the fuel lines, and get all the fittings, fuel blocks, etc. Is that stuff I can simply get off the shelf? Who knows? I need pretty much everything regarding the plumbing, including the tubes that go into the manifold from the choke (sorry, don't know the name for them). Well, I guess that's it for now... Feel free to chime in with questions, comments, suggestions, or answers. Thanks! :-)
I like to go to local car shows on the weekends when I can. Most people don't even know what a Hudson is, and I'm usually the only one there, even when there are 700 other cars. There is also a select minority that knows exactly what a Hudson though, and they become very excited to see one "in the flesh." Usually, the first question I get asked is, "is this a Twin-H?!?" And of course my answer has always been, "no..." You could see obvious disappointment in some people's eyes... I finally starting thinking to myself, "wouldn't it be nice to be able to say yes to all these people...?" Then, I met a guy at the last car show of the year who also owned a Hornet (although he didn't bring it to the show), and he was telling me about how his brother in law found a Twin-H setup in a junkyard, which he installed on his car. That got me thinking, if he could do it, why can't I?
The only problem is, where to find a Twin-H setup? I think most have been picked from junkyards long ago. And even if they weren't, I'm sure years of exposure to the elements would not have been kind to them. eBay had miscellaneous components for sale, of varying condition, but all for extortionist prices. No, that wouldn't do... I needed to find someone who stockpiled several sets, and was willing to let one go for a reasonable price. My first feelers were not fruitful, but finally, after posting on this forum, I got a lead from a regular poster (thanks Uncle Josh!) I called up the gentleman who allegedly had some Twin-H manifolds for sale, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that not only did he have the manifolds, he also had the carbs, air cleaners, AND linkage (AKA The Holy Grail). When he told me his price, I was once again pleasantly surprised, as the gentleman was not looking to make money, but rather just got back what he paid for it, 20 years ago. Hooray for inflation! :-)
In another stroke of fortune, the gentleman lived only about 2 hours away from me. This means I could simply drive up in my fuel-sipping hybrid, and save the shipping costs. Those manifolds are HEAVY - I can only imagine what shipping those hunks of metal would cost... The exchange went well. I was buying everything sight-unseen, as the gentleman does not have internet, so I took him at his word that the items were in good condition. He had previously mentioned that he is also trying to sell his '51 Hornet, so I offered to help him out by posting the car on the forums/Facebook groups for him, since he did not have internet or a computer. He was very grateful for that, as he seemed a bit overwhelmed with the prospect of figuring out how to sell it. He even offered to pay me a commission, but of course I refused. His health now prevents him from enjoying and maintaining the car, and his children have no interest in it. Anyway, I scanned the photos he provided to me, and posted them all the very same night. With any luck, his phone will soon be ringing off the hook with offers... :-)
The first picture shows my haul. It's not perfect, but overall, I'm VERY happy. Here are my concerns:
-The exhaust manifold has one of the studs snapped off a bit. Not sure where I would find another one. My dad said that one of his buddies (a gunsmith) can possible make a new one.
-The intake manifold has a hairline crack (see pic 2). I understand that a lot of people seem to use JB Weld to fix these cracks. It doesn't look bad at all, but I'm no expert. The other option is to try to find a guy to weld it properly.
-Both manifolds have a TON of carbon buildup. All you need to do is shake them, and it'll start pouring out. This of course will need to be cleaned out. I wonder if a professional sandblaster can help me?
-The air cleaners are not correct for a '54 - they are '55 I believe. However, with that being said, they are in nice condition - no dents like most you see, and only very minor surface rust. The paint and decals are pretty chipped and faded, but they are all still there, which is kind of cool. I could either restore them and use them anyway, since I like this style the best, try to trade them to someone for the correct style, or maybe just use them as-is, with the original paint and everything. We'll see.
-The carbs have supposedly been rebuild with Daytona kits, which is great. However, they just don't seem right to me. For starters, the levers on the one carb seem to have been reinstalled backwards in comparison to the other. Not sure if it's supposed to be that way, or if it was just done improperly? They've never been run on a car since rebuild (or probably 40 years before THAT) so it wouldn't have been an issue. But obviously that something that needs to be sorted out. Additionally, the carbs seem to have been spray-painted a gold color. I heard that these were originally off a '53 Hornet, so my guess is that someone wanted these to be gold to match to engine color. This is not ideal for me, as my '54 engine is red. I'd like to have just plain silver carbs. Repainting them silver seems like a pain... I wonder if there's a way I can simply scrub them with a solvent of some sort to remove the gold paint?
-The linkage is just a big unknown to me. It looks like the major piece is there, but I really have no idea of what other pieces I may need, or where to get them. I understand that some pieces are different depending on the transmission, etc. I really won't know until I start mocking things up, and comparing them to pics I see on the internet...
-My last concern is just trying to figure out all the other miscellaneous odds and ends that go along with installing this setup, specifically the plumbing. I have no idea how I'm going to plumb in the fuel lines, and get all the fittings, fuel blocks, etc. Is that stuff I can simply get off the shelf? Who knows? I need pretty much everything regarding the plumbing, including the tubes that go into the manifold from the choke (sorry, don't know the name for them). Well, I guess that's it for now... Feel free to chime in with questions, comments, suggestions, or answers. Thanks! :-)
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Comments
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Glad you got 'em. You'll find that when you get the carbs mounted, the levers on the shaft will line up with them and there should be a couple of small adjustable rods that connect them to the carbs. The holes in the shaft holders will line up with head bolts. I could be wrong, but the carbs look like the raw casting color. Studs should be available at your local hardware or tractor supply store or online from Amazon or Dorman. Get new Twin H decals from Paul LARGETYPE Schuster, Munhall PA Don't know about others, but I had to open my idle screws up to 3 1/2 turns from the recommended 1 1/2 turns. They'll certainly suck the attention away from the other cars at the show.0
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If you download the 48 to 52 service manual, there is a section that describes how to install a Twin H kit. The thing that bothers me about the removal instructions is that it says to remove the manifold with the carburetor intact. The manifold is heavy enough, so is there a reason to leave the carburetor on with its extra weight?0
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Believe Scott (dogwood) posted that he was wanting to trade a unit for a visor. He might have some pieces if you need some? I think that is correct but not sure.0
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Richard is correct in that I do have some random pieces of a twin H linkage but I think the only piece that I'd be able to offer, that would be in addition to what you already have, would be one rod that goes from the carb to the main leverage rod. I did purchase a separate set of linkage from Paul Schuster and you may want to check to see if he has any other kits available.0
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Me TooI have decided to upgrade my 49 Two door sedan. I already have a 53 262 with HydraMatic installed. People always ask if it's Twin H. Had a guy in a Lexus ask me yesterday at a traffic light!
Just got my carbs back from Daytona parts. They look great! cast aluminum finish. Several years ago I had a pair done by them and they were gold colored (Plated?) Perhaps it depends on which model carb gets a different finish? These are the 53-54 version. I just sent them another pair for 51-52. Will see what finish they have. I too am using the Hash air cleaners only because of the two sets, these were easier to repair. I got my decals from the club.
The one essential part I DON"T have is the bellcrank. I have two of the HydraMatic 2BBL type. Push comes to shove, I'll modify one of them. It would save a lot of cutting and welding If I had the correct part. If your car is a HydraMatic you will need this one too.
I am going to use the dual exhaust adaptor as well, With a couple of Cherry bombs, should sound cool ?
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Supposedly, these carbs were rebuilt by Daytona. I'm unclear if that means that Daytona actually rebuilt these, or if the previous owner rebuilt it himself with Daytona kits. I'll post a pic later tonight of the backwards levers on the one carb.
The gold color on the carbs is more subtle than the gold-colored engines. So, maybe it's just a separate thing. They were definitely painted, though, because there looks to be a little bit of overspray in the throat of one of the carbs.
I'll also post some better pics of the linkage later.0 -
Datona parts company plates the carb bodies. they dont use paint.0
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Daytona Carb no longer plates carbs, they do however now paint them. The ones pictured have been plated and most likely have been rebuilt by Daytona carb.0
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You are probably right because the carbs did not deteriorate over several years. The car was at a dealer in Vancouver last I heard.0
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Well crap! I just realized that one of the carbs, the one that didn't seem right, is NOT the right WA-1 for my Hornet. It's the smaller one meant for the smaller sixes!0 -
Here is the linkage that I got with this setup, and what is currently on the car. I don't know enough yet to know what additional parts I will need...
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Your linkage looks pretty complete with the exception of two springs that keep tension between the carb and rods, they fit into the small plates with holes in them. Other than that you'll need the bell crank mentioned above by SuperDave or modify your existing one.0
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Too bad you don't need another 537S..I have one !0
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Welcome to my world. I have posted all this to my facebook page, but simply want to mention that I just finished the process. when I rebuilt my engine I went with a "hot" cam and had to go to Twin-H to get it to run. My hunt process was about the same as yours. I had a few cracks in the intake--and after some mega effort had to scrap the intake and get another. Two suggestions, most engine builders use an electrolis process to clean the parts. This is better than sand blasting and the shop will be able to tap out your old shaft and replace it with a new one. I would have them take them all out and replace them with grade 8 studs (this is overkill but I sleep better. Good welders can seal up the crack. I often wonder if I could have saved my old one with JB Weld--but, went with the weld again to improve my late night sleep habits. I was missing some of the linkage, so I made my own. If you need photos let us know and we can fill your file with our pride of workmanship. By the way, What model of 54 are you saving--mine is a 54 Hornet Special coupe. (rereading your post: I brought my fuel line from under the car up over the wheel hump and keep it away from the engine and bent the final angle stright over to the carb. This keeps the last few feet out in the open and away from the heat of the engine.0
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It's great to read all of this. I have been on the fence about installing the Twin-H set up on my 308. Looks like I may be staying with the single carb unless something falls into my lap. Thanks everyone for posting.0
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Brownie, it's a 54 Hornet Coupe. It was my grandfather's - it's been in the family since the 50s. I didn't grow up around old cars, so I am trying to figure things out as I go. This forum is a godsend!
Since you brought of the topic of studs... the thing I am wondering now is about the studs for the carbs. I understand that due to vapor lock, people add extra gaskets to raise up the carbs. I also ordered some Twin H heat shields to help with that. Sooo... I would assume that the studs would need to be longer to accommodate the extra gaskets. How much longer, I have no idea... I think I read that people use 8 gaskets per carb - 4 below the heat shield, and 4 above. So I'll need 16 gaskets?!
My original idea was to try to clean the manifolds myself. I even had the idea of trying Oven Cleaner (heavy duty with lye). It might sound nuts, but I've used it before to clean metal and wood with great results. After all, the burnt carbon inside is probably similar to burnt food in a dirty oven... er, maybe? But, now I'm liking your idea of have a shop clean it, weld it, and replace the studs for me in 1 fell swoop... I'd just need to find the right shop...0 -
My story is different. My recent purchase is a 49 Super Six with a 262 with Twin H. I didn't expect the engine to even run. I'm hoping that when I get the new plugs in the manifold that it runs as well as it did before I discovered the exhaust leak.0
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Jason, thanks to your post, I knew exactly which welch plugs to order! I need all 6, so I picked up a 10-pack on eBay.
(Dorman 550-010, if anyone is interested)0 -
I took a close look at my 2113S carbs from Daytona Parts. They are electroplated. I could not scratch the coating off even with a file.Iceblade10: I attached four pics, both carbs from left and right sides. Showing vacuum and fuel fittings. Also note the little brackets that go under the mounting bolt for the return springs.
I made the stainless shields from some scrap stainless sheet found at a restaurant equipment supply.
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Looking good, Dave!
How does Daytona Parts work? You send them a beat up carb, and they make it like new again? Could they "convert" another WA-1 to a 2113S?
Where did you get the fuel fittings?0 -
Yes they remanufacture them using new parts where needed and the supply exists. I'm sure it would depend on which carb you send them. However I don't think there is any external differences in the 2113 and 938. I think it's just a metering rod and seat difference. They aren't cheap but it's no fun screwing around with a worn out carburetor X 2. Give them a call 1 386 7108 ask for Ron. Expect $200.00+ per carb.
As for the fittings. Most came out of my junk box but are all available at Ace hardware.
Now if I had the intake manifold I would be ready to roll.
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FYI
Dont be reluctant to install Twin-H set-up if dont have all the linkage and nobody repops it, (unless your a purist). Ive installed a few and every manifold had pieces (or all of linkage) missing. I measured the length from head brackets over to carbs & length to the bell crank then bought mild steel rod at Lowes cut & bent the rod where needed in a vise then treaded one end for small Yokes bought locally..
One I made the two brackets that bolt to the head from 1/8" angle. The J -Clips can be bought at an Auto Store or E bay, (You could also drill rod for a cotter pin by filing a flat spot then drill hole).
Only need ensure full travel at wide open and that both rods come back to Idle on carbs equally by adjusting the Yokes. Additionally, If the bell crank Arm needs modifying and donr have a way to braze or welder, clamp position needed with vise grip then take to a local Weld Shop. The Air Filter brackets can be made from 1/8" Flat Strap and when filters are installed most of the linkage is out of sight anyway.....
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Dave, I agree - it's no fun fiddling with substandard carbs. My plan is to first get the RIGHT carbs, then have them rebuilt to like-new. Seems totally worth the expense.
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Ol racer, Don from Colorado is supposed to be making a new batch of repop'd linkages sometime next year. I don't think his kits have the bell crank and stuff, though. I will most likely need to get creative. At the very least, I think I'll need to create an air filter bracket.0
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Iceblade10,
That's real nice to hear that linkage may be reproduced again. I cant count how many times ive asked each year if my Hudson has the Two Carbs...It seems that middle to older people that grew up back when only Hot Rods had dual or triple carbs (and aluminum heads) became fascinated that Hudson came stock from the factory with them...
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I have on our 54 hornet a twin h with 968s carbs what is the difference between the carbs and the 2113s carbs. Ray
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A friend of mine rebuilt my carbs and set them up. I got to work as his assistant. Learned a lot. Jason Fisher at Vintage Coach had a few extra carbs when I got mine this past summer. Good price as well. He also had the deflectors. When we mounted the carbs we cut new spacers out of a new material that deflected the heat. someone on here should be able to identify the material... If not I can ask. 0 -
I give up. This photo shows the deflectors. The previous photo shows the gasket.
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This discussion has been closed.
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