My Twin-H Saga (with pics!)

dougson

Interesting info. on 968 vs 2113 Carters. I was under the impression that they differed in the the 2113 had an additional ball check valve somewhere. My 308 engine was removed complete from a '56 Hornet and it had (still has) the 968S. I have no reason to believe they are not original to the car, maybe Hudson was running out of the 2113S by then.

Kdancy

Doug, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since that 308 was built!!

48rob

Very nice!

iceblade10

Well, tonight was pretty depressing.  I finished all the fuel lines over the weekend, and bolted the linkage to the head.  My dad was over tonight, so we figured we'd try to see if we could start it up.  

The fuel lines are leaking from pretty much every single fitting.  I bought nice cunifer line, and used a cheap-o flaring tool that Autozone loaned me for free.  Turns out, that free tool cost me $50 in line!  Every single flare is messed up, and I've learned now that they need to be perfect to work.

To add further insult, the linkage geometry just doesn't seem right.  We have the accelerator pedal rod attached almost at the very end, and it still doesn't seem like it will open the carbs up to full throttle.  Also, the rod is hitting the firewall when we you let off the pedal.  The threads that allow the 2 throttle rods on the head to be adjusted backwards and fowards are caput, otherwise I would think that maybe I could have used that to make corrections.  It's possible this linkage or bellcrank might not work at all for me.  I'm still in the tinkering stage with that, but I'm not optimistic.

At this point, I give up making the fuel lines.  I need to hire someone to do it, but I never have any luck finding shops.  I've asked guys at car shows where they take their cars to get work done, but have never really gotten a straight answer.  I've called a couple local "restoration" shops in the past, and have never even gotten a call back.  I'd love to be able to pay a guy with the know-how and right tools to come right to my house to do it (and save me from towing), but that seems like an impossible dream...

Add in the stress of a 9-5 job, a toddler that needs lots of attention, and lots of other chores that need to be done around the house, and you'll understand why I'm skipping the beer and going right for the whiskey tonight!

duncan

What is the difference between the 968s and the 2113s carter carbs.

lostmind

At least you don't need it to get to work in the morning.

You just hit a rough spot , you'll get past it.


I'm sure most of the lines can be used over. Flaring tools are inexpensive,
Buy a decent one at a hardware store or NAPA and redo the flares.
If they aren't split you should be able to save them.
You can cut behind the flare and redo it , rebend the line to fit.
Maybe you can find a tech that does side work to come to your home and help you out.
I used to do it ,evenings and weekends.
Ask your auto parts store if they know of someone with a good reputation.
You probably need to look at another car with twin H to get the linkage right.
Maybe someone in your area can drive their car over so you can compare
them.
You've done the job right so far , with no short cuts. Finish it up.
After a couple water glasses of whiskey and a good hangover , you'll be back at it.
Good luck.

onerare39

Ice,

Have you been in touch with anyone from your local Pennsylvania Dutch Chapter, that would be a great place to start.  I'm almost sure that someone from the club would be willing to offer assistance.  If you would like I can send an email to the chapter to see if they know of anyone in your area that would be willing to help.

Regarding flaring tools, I have two.  One is junk, but I refuse to throw it away, the other one is less expensive and works great.  There are a few tricks to get them to turn out perfect.  Maybe do some research online to learn some of the techniques.

John Forkner

RichardD

Why can't you use ferrules?? They won't leak. You won't mess those up. Use slip on thermal insulation sleeves, Jegs or Summit, where the line is close to exhaust pipe. You can save your tubing; you will just have another section or two.

Jay_G

Making good flairs takes some learning and each line material is different.  Copper is different than steel which is different than stainless steel.  On my twin H I duplicated the rusted steel lines at lease 3 times before I was happy with it.  Then I went to SS and all bets were off.  Bending and flaring is a nightmare even with good tools.  It got to the point that I could not get one fitting to seal no matter how hard I cranked on it.  To the point I was afraid I would crack the carb casting.  At that point I used a good sealant on the threads and everything is great.  So you could use a good thread sealant that is compatible with gas.  There is no harm in using all the tricks before you toss it in the trash.  On my triple weber setup I prototyped everything in copper, then sent the copper to a tubing bender to duplicate.  When it came back it sort of worked but I was not happy so I got some SS and did it myself.  Yes, I wasted some tubing but now it is just as I want it and it looks great and is straight.  And yes I used sealant because I did not want to destroy the brass fittings.  At this point no leaks and on to the next project.

Jay  

50ClubCoupe

I used the aluminum tubing and compression fittings with ferrules....came out just fine and you don't have to mess with flares.  I also use some Permatex PTFE sealant on the brass threads just to make sure everything stays dry. 

I've got a friend in Downingtown that specializes in cars from 1900-1970 and he could help you out but you'd had to get the car to him, which I know you're trying to avoid.

iceblade10

Thanks for all the advice, guys.  I feel a little better after having slept on it.  Ultimately, I guess it's not a big deal, as I mostly just wasted my time (my most precious commodity these days) and maybe some tubing (although I may even be able to salvage some!)

I contacted a local car club that hosts many car shows in the area, and asked if they know any good mechanics who might be able to help me.  They told me about a local shop where most of them take their cars, who even has his own rollback.  So, that's an option.  

Also, my dad's friend, the gunsmith/machinist who has helped me time and time again, apparently used to build racecars back in the day.  He supposedly has all the fittings and ferrules I'd need.  So maybe I'll try that option before doing anything else.

Once I get the fuel lines figured out, I'll still have to solve the riddle of the linkage, as well as why the heck my choke tube nuts refuse to fit on the carburetors...

RL Chilton

Stephen-

I do the double flaring on my cars and I use original-style steel lines (which are harder to do than copper), but not too bad.  The biggest piece of advice I have learned about doing this particular job is that I can show you a drawer full of crappy, junk flaring tools made in China that cannot get the job done on steel.  When your tooling is not even as hard as the line your are trying to flare, failure is inevitable.  I cannot stress enough that quality, hardened steel tooling is a must.  Trouble is, if you are doing one car's worth of lines, the question of value comes into the equation of having to pay more for quality tools when they're only going to be used once a year at best.  But, a quality set of flaring tools that cost more, but last a lifetime is a value.  

I crank the hell out of my flares to make sure they seal and that can't be accomplished with inferior tools, plain and simple.  I'm yet to use Cunifer lines, but I understand they are easier to flare.  Still, there's little tricks like any endeavor that makes the finished product better, and that includes double flaring over single, line cutters, filing the chamfer on the outside of the end of the line before your first flare, Using a 'V' tool to chamfer off of the lip on the the inside of the line, having the correct amount of line sticking out of your line clamp in preparation of flaring, getting your 2nd flare to lay just right, i.e., too much pressure will split the fold and too little pressure and the flare won't seal.  

Still, don't get discouraged.   There's always more than one way to skin a cat.  If doing your own flares isn't in the cards, look for the next solution and attack it with gusto.  It's all part of old car ownership and when the successes come along, it makes the previous attempts all but forgotten.  

Heck, if you lived closer, you'd be welcome to come over and we'd knock it out.  

dougson

Certainly do not get too discouraged, you should have been around me (maybe not) when I was building my coupe, many 3 AM nights trying to get something to work (right!). Typically any project will have leaks of some kind, when I first applied the brakes in my car, it looked like a rain forest underneath.

iceblade10

The emotional rollercoaster continues.

My dad came over and we took apart all the leaky fuel lines I made, and redid all the flares.  He said that a double-flare was overkill, and that we only needed a single flare, which is of course much easier to make.  We were able to salvage some of the pieces I made, and for the pieces we could not, we simply remade with cunifer tubing that we got at Advance Auto.  My dad's friend made 2 pieces for us - one from the fuel pump, because it had a sharp 90 degree turn, and the other was the small 2 inch piece after the glass bowl fuel filter.  Wouldn't you know it that the first piece was way too short, and the second piece leaks?  So we ended up remaking the first piece by hand, anyway.  We haven't replaced the second piece yet, but since the carbs were full of gas, why not crank it and see what happens...?

It fired right up, first try!

And man, I'll tell you what, I only ran it for about 3 seconds, but I can already tell you that it sounds WAY more aggressive than the single-carb setup I had!

We still have to remake that fuel line piece, then the fun of trying to sync up the carbs and fine-tune the linkage/trans kickdown begins.  But, at least I'll no longer have to worry about whether she'll start or not!

iceblade10

Update!

What a difference it makes having the right tools!  I bought the T-shaped tubing bender after messing with those silly disc-on-a-handle ones, and man, it worked so well that I was actually having fun bending the tubing.  I wanted to walk around my house and see what else I could bend...LOL!  I also splurged on a hydraulic flaring tool, which was very expensive, but ending up being worth every penny.  It makes perfect flares each and every time, and the leaks are now history.  Plus, I probably spent less money on the tool than I would paying some shop to do it, and now I have the experience and tool for the rest of my life.

I ended up omitting the glass-bowl fuel filter in my final iteration, because it just seemed more trouble than it was worth.  I have a fuel filter underneath the car between the tank and the pump already, so while it would be nice to have an additional filter after the pump, it's not critical.  Perhaps one day when I decide I want more aggravation in my life, I'll consider trying to put it back on...

At this point, the car runs, but needs the carbs adjusted and sync'd up.  I do have a unisync tool, but I need to figure out how to use it.  After that's done, I'll need to road test the car and see how my pedal/transmission rods are performing.  The gas pedal would only work on the top hole on the bellcrank, because it would rub on the firewall using the lower one.  The transmission kickdown was placed at a somewhat arbitrary position, so that's the one I'm more worried about.

I hope to have this all done soon so I can finally start driving again!

Glowplug

Stephen - The attached PDF is the adjustment procedure for syncing the carbs with a UNISYNC

Glowplug

The following is a repost from Ken U addressing the carb syncing as well as the transmission rod....

Ken U-Tx Senior Contributor

January 8 edited January 8 Posts: 3,230                  

He lengthened it to soften the shift and to  reduce the speeds at which it up-shifted. The throttle rod advances or retards the shift ports at the governor.  As for shifts being too harsh, this can also be caused by bands being too tight, pressure too high, wrong fluid (Ford Type A will harshen the shifts),  rust on the planetary gear drums from long term storage, etc......
     When installing the Twin H linkage or adjusting it, you must follow the procedures by inserting a 1/4" drill rod or pin through the notch in the bell crank and into the drilled hole in the side of the block, after disconnecting the cross rods from the longitudinal Twin H shaft by taking out the clevis pins. This ensures that the little levers on the longitudinal shaft are angled upwards slightly for proper geometry (not being over-centered which would cause binding). Now with the bell crank positioned correctly with the cross shafts off, you can use a UNI-SYN carb synchronizer to synch the twin carbs, then adjust the clevises on the threaded cross-rods so the clevis pins slip freely into the holes of the clevises and the short levers on the longitudinal Twin H linkage shaft. Now you can take the 1/4" pin or drill out and drive the car, and if you need to adjust the Hydramatic throttle rod, you can do so, like a turn or two at a time until the shift points and kick down are where you want them. It will be a bit of a compromise between smoothness and rapid kick-down. You cannot expect an old Hydramatic to shift "smart" like a modern electronic automatic, as it is totally mechanical and hydraulic in it's operation, no "fuzzy logic" at work there.

RL Chilton

" Plus, I probably spent less money on the tool than I would paying some shop to do it, and now I have the experience and tool for the rest of my life."

And that, IMO, is priceless.  Congratulations!

Glowplug

Russell - while at my Dads in New York two years ago he handed me a small box that contained the unisync he had purchased many decades ago to synchronize the carbs on his corvair.    It is now in my non used tool display! 

RL Chilton

Oldfarmer1947gmailcom said:

Russell - while at my Dads in New York two years ago he handed me a small box that contained the unisync he had purchased many decades ago to synchronize the carbs on his corvair.    It is now in my non used tool display! 

Very cool, Oldfarmer!  I have a more modern, reproduction one, which works, but I keep my eyes out for a vintage one in good shape.  

duncan

I bought my unisync back in the early 70s from Clifford.Boy I am getting old.  Ray

iceblade10

Thanks Oldfarmer, I actually have that printed out from your site from when I started this project.  Very good information!

I don't know much about tuning carburetors to begin with, and my dad was fiddling with them a few weeks ago to get the engine to run, so they're all out of whack.  He set the choke plates to be wide-open, even when the engine is cold.  I feel like the idle is also too fast at this point, and the front carb is sucking in a lot more air than the rear.  Is this something I use the mixture screws to adjust?!  I also don't have a tool to measure the RPM, but maybe my dad does.  He'll hopefully come over this weekend and help me...

I bought my unisync tool on Amazon last fall.  It's probably Chinese, as opposed to the old English ones, but hopefully it works well enough...

iceblade10

Ok, now for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!  My dad came over today and we played around with the carbs, and got them sync'd up pretty well.  We took it for a test drive, and amazingly, the transmission kickdown worked PERFECTLY on the spot I somewhat arbitrarily chose to install it on.  In fact, my dad couldn't believe how smoothly it was shifting.  And when I gave it some gas cruising up a slight incline, it IMMEDIATELY down-shifted and pulled like it NEVER did with the old setup.

I made a video today with a "tour" of my car, and then the startup/running.  If you don't want to hear me rambling on about keychains and hubcaps, just skip to 13:00

https://youtu.be/nMtXIq6LywM

onerare39

Very nice, I hope that you enjoy it for years to come.

RichardD

Very nice, Steve. Glad you liked the hubcaps. Beautiful car. Yes, keep it~~

Browniepetersen

Yes, very nice Steve.

RL Chilton

Great job, Stephen!  I'm proud of 'ya for stickin' with it.  Now put on your GoPro and let's go for a drive!   

duncan

Beautiful job Steve. I wish we could do something like that with our car. Make a video I was looking at your neg cable the one to solenoid is it 6v or 12 v 6volt is a lot heaver. Ray from Canada

duncan

Steve  The reverse in your trans is the park when engine is turned off.  Hudsonly  Ray

iceblade10

Ray, all the wiring to my knowledge is for 6V.  The battery cables especially are very heavy.  I haven't had any electrical problems since I've owned the car (knock on wood), so it seems everything is correct.

I do usually park it in R, but since I was repeatedly starting the car that day, it was in N during the video.